So, LORI,you do use the p-pages arbitrarily then! So typical. We didn't even talk about feather fill and prime that insurers refuse to pay for. When this subject is brought up, the adjusters are trained to demean the shops and ridicule their paint application skills and equipment or to simply say that is included, I paid for that. But since this seems to be a huge problem in the industry, the data providers devised a formula for shops to be compensated for the necessity and product manufacturers devote a tremendous amount of products and equipment to remedy the predicted occurances. I suppose 3M developed that entire line of products for dirty painters that are isolated incidences.
Not sure where you are getting your p page stuff, must be the company version. All shops have orange peel, texture, debri, dirt, lint, etc in their paint as shops do not have the multi million dollar static free facilities in which the manufacturer paints vehicles and even they have issues with dirt.
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I don't pay de-nib because that is included for one, and the amount of denib and buff required is a direct result of the quality of the paint application...(I'm sure you know this)...
Mitchell P page 47
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Finish Sand & Buff
A labor time formula is provided should it be necessary to perform this operation. This procedure includes the removal of orange peel and any blemishes that affect paint texture in order to procduce a smooth finish to the entire panel surface. This process is NOT limited to "nib sanding" or "finessing" which is the removal of isolated dirt/dust particles only. The performance of this operation is NOT INCLUDED in the Mitchell refinish labor time.
Finish Sand and buff outside surface area(s).
Allow .3 per refinish hour (30)% to finish sand and buff each surface area(s).
De-Nib & Finesse
A labor time formula is provided should it be necessary to perform this operation. This procedure includes the removal of small isolated dust particles (nibs) and the application of a finishing glaze.
The performance of this operation is NOT INCLUDED in the Mitchell refinish labor time.
The de-nib and finesse formula is intended to be calculated as a percentage of the base refinish hours excluding overlap and clear coat. It DOES NOT APPLY to edge, jambs, and undersides. For blended panels, the formula should be applied to the full panel refinish time. No deduction for refinish overlap should be taken.
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CCC version
DE-NIB & POLISH
SPECIAL NOTATION:
Refinished panels may or may not require a varying amount of de-nibbing, a process used to remove small particles in final finish surface. The clear coat contains ultraviolet screeners and reducing the clear coat thickness (mils) may result in early paint failure. Follow vehicle manufacturer's recommendations when performing this type of repairs. Calculations should be based upon the base refinish time outer surface only and should not include additions for clear coat, underside, inside or edges. In the event that this type of operation will be performed, MOTOR suggests the following formula be considered:
Each panel requiring de-nibbing (refinish or blend)
HOOD, ROOF, TRUNK LID, SPOILER
First panel add up to 20% of full base refinish time, each additional panel add up to10%
FENDER, DOOR, QUARTER PANEL, BUMPER COVER
First panel add up to 10% of full base refinish time, each additional panel add up to 5%
INCLUDED:
• Panel outer surface only
• Paint nib removal as required (spot only)
• Spot polish only
DOES NOT INCLUDE:
• Acid rain damage
• Full panel polish
• Overspray removal
• Removal of residual material from recessed edges and jambs if required
• Scratch damage
• Wash, clean, wax or detail entire vehicle prior to delivery if required
• Wet sand full panel
Under the included denib operations above, de-nib included operations refers to the process of de-nib, and not refinnishing.
Audatex
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Replaced Panel Refinish
Current Audatex refinish labor is based on the use of new and undamaged
panels. Additional steps or processes that may be required should be
considered during estimate preparation.
Repaired Panel Refinish
When a repaired panel is being refinished, the estimator provides
time for the repair of the panel. Consequently, the estimator also
determines included operations. When Audatex refinish labor is used
for repaired panels, Audatex refinish times assume that the panel
has been returned to the condition of a new, undamaged OEM panel
or equivalent.
Operations that might be considered in the repair refinish time
include any steps required to bring the panel to the condition of a
new, undamaged panel. This may include feather edge, blow off and
clean, mask to prime, tack off, mix etch primer, prime bare metal, mix
and apply primer filler, guide coat application, unmask as required
and block sand. Panel scuff to facilitate application of clear may also
be considered for two- or three-stage refinish.
Feather / Prime / Block
Audatex recognizes that Feather/Prime/Block are required operations
in the panel repair process, that occurs after 150 grit, to bring the
repaired panel to the condition of a new, undamaged panel for the
purpose of refinish. Audatex does not provide labor allowance for
repaired panels, as this is a judgment time, nor does Audatex
provide material allowance for the Feather/Prime/Block process. The
determination and assessment for this operation is best provided by
the estimate preparer for consideration and allowance during the
estimate preparation process.
Nib Sanding/De-nib
Nib sanding (or de-nib) is defined as the removal of isolated dirt and dust
particles, and polishing the affected area(s).
�� Audatex’s formula for Final Sand, Polish, and Buff does not apply to
this operation. Additional steps or processes that may be required
should be considered during estimate preparation.
Wow, I didn't see the operation included anywhere in any of the data provider p pages. Is it possible that Lori was incorrect or merely stating company inclusions and exclusions? _________________ If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
So, LORI,you do use the p-pages arbitrarily then! So typical.
No how do you figure that it's arbitrary when something isn't in them at all! There is also such a thing as common practice for an area....If all the shops in my area requested to be paid for a certain operation that isn't even mentioned in the p-pages, then more than likely they would get paid for it....just because YOU charge for something certainly is no indication that ALL shops do or should...For instance one of my larger shops, requests that all vehicles come back to the shop 30 days or so after the vehicle has delivered, they wash the vehicle and vacuum it out (free of charge) and go over their work again...Now, this is a customer service that this shop does for free. It helps build their customer base and something they can say they do that no one else does....so does that mean Mike that you should be doing this too? Course not....Just like when one shop advertises that they will (as an example) tow your vehicle in for free within 15 miles or so....not chargin' for that either...
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Is it possible that Lori was incorrect or merely stating company inclusions and exclusions?
Read it straight from the screen...but see Mike all of these, say that it's not required on all vehicles...or similar such statements ie
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Refinished panels may or may not require a varying amount of de-nibbing
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Additional steps or processes that may be required should be considered during estimate preparation.
So Mike are you telling me that you are charging (and getting paid) and additional .3 per paint hour on every job to denib and polish? Seriously? I've got to get the phone book out and call the other shops in Joplin and see if they too are doing this...another reason to go to another shop...Why if one shop (of equal quality and skill) would do this for free, and you are charging for it, would a person or carrier not chose the shop that the chose to do this for their customers without charging extra? Seriously think about it Mike. _________________ Have you been helped by a poster? Do you want to show your appreciation? YOU CAN !! Just simply click on the donate button and send them some coin!
No how do you figure that it's arbitrary when something isn't in them at all! There is also such a thing as common practice for an area....If all the shops in my area requested to be paid for a certain operation that isn't even mentioned in the p-pages, then more than likely they would get paid for it....
I just quoted you three sources of p-pages where it suggests payment is owed when necessary. It's arbitrary because you refuse to accept it is printed in black and white and you choose to ignore it? Come on Lori, think and read with your eyes and do not read with rose colored glasses your company gives you.
I am not aware of what other shops charge or get paid for, it's not my business and I don't really care. If it was necessary and it commonly is, the insurers would not pay for it because it is not a common prevailing practice or it is not something that insurers choose to pay for based on the lame excuse, no one else charges for it. Arbitrary
Day one in insurance adjuster school one is taught to say "We don't pay for that" and "you are the only one". You know what, insurers didn't use to pay for hazardous waste either, they didn't use to pay for car covers, they claimed they didn't owe markup for the use of the shop's money to pay for sublet items. Oh those clips and materials specific to that job surely are covered in your overhead. Some dependent upon insurer shops choose to accept those lies. Why do you suppose the largest collision trade organizations in the tri- states are seeking legislation (unwisely) to make insurers use the entire database instead of arbitrarily. Mainly it's because most of them work for the insurer and not the consumer and you won't allow them to charge you for it. One of the sad non benefits and bi-products of DRP programs is that they have to ask permission and authorization from the insurer to whom they have enslaved themselves to, instead of the person who owns the property and contracts with the shop. It is the insurer that owes them not the shop. Shops that realize this help consumers get paid.
So we are back onto the insurance merry go round and circular logic. It's not because no one is asking to be paid for it, it's because insurers refuse to pay for it like anything else. Just like I said, you pick and choose what you want to use out of your data base and ignore the block and prime and cut & buff and denib. We only pay 1.5 units for set up and measure blah blah blah. it drones on and on and always has.
So on a current hail damage job, I charged for it, got paid for it by the consumer. Consumer collected entire bill in full from their insurer and I had no contact with the insurer and did not base my invoice on the insurer estimate. Oh I am sure, on the insurer estimate, no line item showed on the adjuster's final paperwork for buffing or the materials, they simply cost shifted it to cover their behind. I do see a lot of everyone elses work in my area from time to time. They too, are buffing for free or not buffing and leaving their dirt in it at the largest drp shops with the most expensive of booths. Must be all this Oklahoma and Kansas dust crossing the state line. I've inspected vehicles from some of the largest dealership shops for BMW and Infinity in the state on DV assessment and guess what, they're buffing their work. To the trained eye, it is obvious. And with a mil guage it can be proven. See they have poor applicators and painting habits in all corners of the states or is it just common practice that a quality shop buffs and de-nibs their work whether they are paid for it or not. _________________ If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
Perhaps it's just me but I fail to see that you have any point Mike. You have claimed _many_ times that the insurance company and shop have no contract or obligations what so ever. You bill the consumer. So why do you can what the insurance company pays? Again... pointless.
No kidding T...Mike you drone on and on, about how you don't and will not have anything to do with the carriers...so as T said, What's your complaint? Keep doing what you're doing, and leave everyone else alone....
Out of one side of your mouth you say that it's ok for you to charge more, or for things shops in your area do not charge THEIR CUSTOMERS for. Then just a few posts ago, you deny it! same Mike different thread...
Seriously, if all the shops in a given area, EXCEPT for Mike are not charging for routine operations, why oh why would anyone want to have their vehicle fixed at your shop? Apparently you have no issue nickel and dimeing your customers to death....just like this ridiculous statement...
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One of the sad non benefits and bi-products of DRP programs is that they have to ask permission and authorization from the insurer to whom they have enslaved themselves to, instead of the person who owns the property and contracts with the shop. It is the insurer that owes them not the shop. Shops that realize this help consumers get paid.
Yeah, rather than contact anyone that knows more that than poor old 80 year old man about collision repair. You're gonna call him up, or maybe his 95 year old sister, and say, 'hey by the way, ran into a little addition problem here, while doing the alignment we realize that you're gonna need a lower control arm, hub and bearing, and a strut too...gonna increase your bill by about 800 bucks ok?' What are they gonna say? They have no idea what these parts are or what they do...better yet, call em up and say, after setting up your car and measuring it we have determined you have about four control points moved, little mash and sway, so gonna need, oh, bout 5 hours frame time on this puppy too'...again what are they gonna say? If you pointed to it they still wouldn't know what you are talking about! Mike, I'm not for one second saying that you would screw over someone, but you and I both know without watch dogs, there are shops that would rape both the consumer and insurance carriers alike...but again what on earth do you care? Other than the fact that apparently you charge for things your neighboring shops don't (including administrative fees? pa-leeeeeeeze )... which will eventually nickel and dime you right out of buisness...so leave the other guys alone for pete's sake, you keep touting that your business is in superb condition...so why not tick a lock, and and keep dropping all that money into the bank every night? T and I will keep doing our jobs making sure that vehicles are repaired correctly and properly and that no one is getting ripped off. And you don't have to worry about it, cause, well you don't do 'insurance' work...k?
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They too, are buffing for free or not buffing and leaving their dirt in it at the largest drp shops with the most expensive of booths. Must be all this Oklahoma and Kansas dust crossing the state line.
Yeah, yeah, you're the only good shop within a million mile radius we get it...not one DRP shop knows a fender from a quarter...they all mix their paint with a stick...we got it Mike...
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I've inspected vehicles from some of the largest dealership shops for BMW and Infinity in the state on DV assessment and guess what, they're buffing their work.
Of course they are I never said no one buffed their work, just that no one asks to get paid for it (on a refinished panel)...these guys didn't either did they?
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See they have poor applicators and painting habits in all corners of the states or is it just common practice that a quality shop buffs and de-nibs their work whether they are paid for it or not.
No see you proved my point they all do it just NO BODY BUT YOU thinks they need to get paid extra for it... but hey didn't you just (a post or two ago) deny that you won't / don't work for the prevailing rate? That your door rates are higher, and of course all these 'extra' things you charge for that NO ONE (by your own admission) in your area charge for? Pick one Mike and try and stick with it....better yet, get a hobby, (oh wait this is your hobby isn't it?)...seriously why do you care? _________________ Have you been helped by a poster? Do you want to show your appreciation? YOU CAN !! Just simply click on the donate button and send them some coin!
No see you proved my point they all do it just NO BODY BUT YOU thinks they need to get paid extra for it... but hey didn't you just (a post or two ago) deny that you won't / don't work for the prevailing rate? That your door rates are higher, and of course all these 'extra' things you charge for that NO ONE (by your own admission) in your area charge for? Pick one Mike and try and stick with it....better yet, get a hobby, (oh wait this is your hobby isn't it?)...seriously why do you care?
_________________
Don't know what you're reading Lori. Never said my door rate was higher. There may be things I get paid for that others don't simply because I know who my customer is and how to help them get paid what is owed to them.
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or for things shops in your area do not charge THEIR CUSTOMERS for. Then just a few posts ago, you deny it! same Mike different thread...
I'll go on record as saying I think ,on the whole, the work from my area of the state is equal or surpasses the quality of anyone elses in the state. I just can't figure out why they want to give you kickbacks for the referrals, kiss your feet and thank you for the crumbs, and complain at meetings about insurers and why they can't get you to pay them for things as we discussed earlier. Some apparently drank the koolaid insurers gave them back in the nineties and believed insurers would form partnerships and take care of them. I can't imagine why they continue to complain about the disparities and having to give insurers what amounts to kickbacks to remain on those precious preferred lists. I don't understand why they complain when it is their name on the front of their business, yet they let you dictate arbitrarily to them how much you will allow them to be paid for any given procedure. I simply have the courage to be independent on these issues while they choose to wimper, moan, and comply.
The more things change the more they remain the same. Ever the good and loyal company propagandist, deny, delay, distort the facts. Change the subject, attempt ridicule, demean, and personal attacks...geez. Must really chap your hide for a business owner to disagree and refuse to go along to get along with your perceived authority.
T, take a chill pill. Somebody is obviously interested in this dialogue based on the views. If you don't wish to participate work on some of those subrogation and fraud claims they save for the big brain independents you bragged about. Maybe Progressive will need to consult you for that trial. It's been delayed by the way so adios for about 3 weeks.
If every shop in a three county area decided they would start charging for those arbitrarily eliminated procedures that are listed in the procedural pages, you would then include them on your estimates? Ha, hardly, they would all get private meetings from their drp pimps if they were on programs reminding them who the boss is and they would tuck their tells and wimper and agree to do them for free. _________________ If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
I just can't figure out why they want to give you kickbacks for the referrals, kiss your feet and thank you for the crumbs, and complain at meetings about insurers and why they can't get you to pay them for things as we discussed earlier.
You want to make as much money as possible, so don't blame insurance _companies_ for wanting the same thing. If you want all body shops to jump on board, sounds like you're barking up the wrong tree.
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I simply have the courage to be independent on these issues while they choose to wimper, moan, and comply.
I deal with hundreds of shops... they don't seem to have any problems with what I pay. Perhaps it's just you?
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Must really chap your hide for a business owner to disagree and refuse to go along to get along with your perceived authority.
Only one person I see has an issue with it... the same one that claims it matters not to him. Since you don't have a problem with it and it should not matter if a millions other shops do (???), move on.
I've tried to move on, and every time I leave, someone sends me a note telling me you guys drug up a post and hammered me again. A guys got a right to defend himself to bullies.
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Only one person I see has an issue with it... the same one that claims it matters not to him. Since you don't have a problem with it and it should not matter if a millions other shops do (???), move on.
Now who's head is buried in the sand, the natives are restless and shops across the country are not happy with all the trade magazines reporting as such, but oh yeah, these aren't the national media. I predict yours and Lori's paths will cross more shop owners growing a set in the next year or two, and making your jobs as unpleasant as you imply I make you feel. _________________ If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
the natives are restless and shops across the country are not happy with all the trade magazines reporting as such
Again, why would (or any of them care)? As you said yourself, many times, you don't need to concern yourself with what insurance companies pay. Move on.
Oh, I have to concern myself with what they pay, I am, afterall, a consumer too. I have to concern myself when people come to me and ask for some direction on how to get a fair settlement and some insurer is trying to take advantage of the uninformed and their agent or adjuster won't pick up a phone. After all I believe you may have said something to the effect, it's their own fault for not reading their policies. _________________ If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
Oh, I have to concern myself with what they pay, I am, afterall, a consumer too.
But all of your posts are from a body shop point of view... not a customers point of view. Again, as you've said yourself... you don't need to concern yourself with that an insurance company pays. Move on.
I just can't figure out why they want to give you kickbacks for the referrals,
Look up the word 'kickback'...then take it back...I've never received a kickback in my life nor would I....I take personal offense to that statement, and I'm asking you as man of reasonable intelligence to resend that now...
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I can't imagine why they continue to complain
I'll go you one better, I can't imagine why you complain PERIOD...it's none of your business as you've said over and over, YOU arent' a drp and do not work with carriers....so buzz off about it Mike, it's a non-issue with YOU, fight world hunger or something...this according to you is not YOUR problem...and has ZERO effect on you!
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I don't understand why they complain when it is their name on the front of their business, yet they let you dictate arbitrarily to them how much you will allow them to be paid for any given procedure. I simply have the courage to be independent on these issues while they choose to wimper, moan, and comply
Shops I work with have no issues...see if there is a question on a particular procedure, brace yourself now Mike....we talk it over and come to a mutually agreeable conclusion, no that doesn't mean they aren't getting paid for something they asked for...we ACTUAL discuss each and every repair and come to an agreement about how the vehicle is to be repaired and that is what I pay for...no hard feelings, no lines in the sand, here's another one you'd better brace yourself for...we act like mature reasonable adults! With a common goal...repairing the car!
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I simply have the courage to be independent on these issues while they choose to wimper, moan, and comply.
DUDE, seriously, you wimper, moan and complain more than anyone on this site!
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I've tried to move on, and every time I leave, someone sends me a note telling me you guys drug up a post and hammered me again. A guys got a right to defend himself to bullies.
I'm from the same state you are Mike...'show me'...no body did this, you just couldn't stand being away from here, some kind of weird attention thing is all I can figure...you cry, whine, and complain about things, that from your own fingers, have NO effect whatsoever on you! How much sense does that make?
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I predict yours and Lori's paths will cross more shop owners growing a set in the next year or two, and making your jobs as unpleasant as you imply I make you feel.
That's a laugh, you're industry can't agree on the time of day...I'll give you a prediction, DRP's aren't going anywhere, they have steadily grown by leaps and bounds in the past ten years, and why? Because it saves money for the carriers in a variety of ways, most carriers allow the shops to write the sheets and photo damage, that in and of it's self saves millions of dollars, the shops have a steady stream of work...Ain't gonna' happen buddy, you come back here in let's say three years, and 'show me' where there has been a reduction rather than an increase in DRP's ain't gonna' happen Mike, best just get ready for it....
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Oh, I have to concern myself with what they pay, I am, afterall, a consumer too. I have to concern myself when people come to me and ask for some direction on how to get a fair settlement and some insurer is trying to take advantage of the uninformed and their agent or adjuster won't pick up a phone.
Oh yeah, Mike the consumate consumer protector, why don't you tell these people that you are championing that you are going to charge them for many things the guy down the street will do for free, even non drp shops! Tell them that they can get the same job done by your competitor for less money, not a drp just another guy trying to make a living...tell them that Mike.... _________________ Have you been helped by a poster? Do you want to show your appreciation? YOU CAN !! Just simply click on the donate button and send them some coin!
Hey, the twins, Prattle on and Rattle on, You're simply proving my point that when an adjuster meets opposition of your industry hot air, You deny, delay, distort, and demean. The more I respond, DeMeaner you guys get.
First you're stalking me by cruising my forums (similar to those progressive guys joining one shopowners church to find the dirt on them), then you chirp and dance thinking your sleuthing skills outed me. And now you are considering calling area shops to check on me? Now that's bordering on harassing Lori. Give it up! Your friends are worrying about you and frankly I am too.
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I've got to get the phone book out and call the other shops in Joplin and see if they too are doing this...another reason to go to another shop...Why if one shop (of equal quality and skill) would do this for free,
As long as you guys think you make my assertions an isolated incident, you prop yourselves and your egos up just enough to trip continously over them. And yet observe, problems with insurance practices from the east coast to the west coast in just today's news.
Yeah, those silly Connecticut people filing a class action suit against an insurer practice and California passing legislation prohibiting arbitrary insurance capping are just isolated problems down in the ozarks with Mike.
Here's your reading assignment for the day.
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Collision repairers in the Nutmeg State are spicing up an ongoing brouhaha with the insurance industry over alleged steering by filing a series of class action lawsuits against carriers viewed as the more egregious offenders.
“It’s been killing us, and we’ve decided that we’ve had enough,” says Bob Skrip, president of the Auto Body Association of Connecticut (ABAC) and owner of Skrip’s Auto Body Inc. in Prospect. “We’ve worked 30 years to establish a customer base, and they’re trying to take our customers away.”
Other shops complaining about losing profits because of Insurer interference
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A major conundrum shop owners face today is the fact that, contrary to that which insurers espouse, all collision repairs are not created equal . The lack of true standards in the repair of collision damaged vehicles leaves the potential for improper or substandard repair up to the discretion of the shop, or the insurance company paying for the repair.
But is this the way we have been “conditioned” to accept this situation? Is quality in the eyes of the beholder, or is quality the result of some cost standard?
The way it should work and does for truly independent shops. Just out today and covers almost every topic from this long thread.
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Once the car is brought in (with the customer’s authorization), you can disassemble it. Now you can come up with a blueprint for the repair and approximate cost, but you’re never going to know any of that until the car is completely repaired. Then you can explain to the customer that there will be certain additions and/or subtractions as the job progresses. A lot depends on state law because ours says that if we exceed our estimated price by 10 percent, we have to notify the customer and get authorization.”
But Lombardozzi added a twist to the practice. “We explain to the customers that we’re going to call them and also, if they like, we will as a courtesy let the insurer know that the amount it held in reserve may not be accurate.”
Lombardozzi says the insurance estimate’s only purpose is to establish the amount set as a tentative reserve loss for that claim. He believes the only role the insurance adjuster has is to satisfy the policy’s provision to allow him or her to verify the loss. And, at least in a CCRE shop, that’s the beginning and end of an insurer’s involvement in the repair. He says the process is working out great, “although it takes a while for a shop to get out of the rut it has been in.”
Lori, did you mean rescind or resend, cause I would be happy to resend but not rescind?
I'm done, start with the vitriolic attacks as usual, but I'll not respond. It's been real and it's been nice, but it hasn't been real nice, you guys are just too meanspirited and vindictive; must come with your jobs. Should've bailed out long ago, others warned me and said I was talking to a brick wall and a door knob. I'll be sure to not let the door hit me in the backside on the way out of here. Try to spend sometime outside this forum and read some industry issues so you can be relevant in the future. _________________ If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
First you're stalking me by cruising my forums (similar to those progressive guys joining one shopowners church to find the dirt on them)
Take off he foil hat! From what I recall, YOU asked me to visit those forums! I also recall Lori performing an Internet search to see if indeed you were selling DV reports. You can try to paint the picture you want but I think everyone see's right through it.
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And now you are considering calling area shops to check on me?
Typical "Mike Response"... you _quote_ what what actually said and then try to make it look like something not even close to what was really written. Lori CLEARLY stated (sarcastically) that she might call other shops to see what they charge. Never once said she was calling them about you. But people expect no less from you at this point. It's obvious that your not above making things up to try to prove your point.
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Yeah, those silly Connecticut people filing a class action suit against an insurer practice and California passing legislation prohibiting arbitrary insurance capping are just isolated problems down in the ozarks with Mike.
Yeah, yeah, yeah... another Internet headline found by Mike. How about this headline... Progressive sues shop for commiting fraud. Gee... all body shops are guilty of fraud in every case. That is the exact thing you'd like people to think about insurance companies.
I'm not even going to waste my time reading the article you linked. Been there, done that. Many times in the past you tried to pass off articles as supporting your rants when they actually supported the opposite view!
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It's been real and it's been nice, but it hasn't been real nice, you guys are just too meanspirited and vindictive
Sorry to point out your many errors in public... you might not be use to that. If having people point out the truth hurts a little, sorry.
