Again, cutting down the need of good old fashion body work?

Message Author
ampm-bookmark
delicious-small Add to delicious
yahoomyweb-small Add to YahooMyWeb
blinklist-small Add to BlinkList
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:48 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
I am sure most of them are from your insurance friends and some people that can't imagine that someone would challenge Lori's expertice
No actually wanting to know why you are allowed to say some of the things you say...
Quote:
I get messages as well that tell me everything from "your talking to a brick wall she is just brainwashed"
I've seen those comments mike on some of the sites you frequent, and they were right there in the posts...on the site that won't allow or runs off and attacks any poor shop owner/tech that has the nerve to work at a shop with a DRP...pity...



The example that you provide of your 'mail man' is the exception Mike not the rule...and I agree both carriers should have their feet over the fire...no question.......so what's your point?


_________________

"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr.
Lori
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

Lori
Forum Expert

Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8080

Location: Missouri
287.93 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:18 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
The example that you provide of your 'mail man' is the exception Mike not the rule...and I agree both carriers should have their feet over the fire...no question.......so what's your point?




My point is that it is the rule more than the exception from what I read here and hear from many consumers.



Quote:
No actually wanting to know why you are allowed to say some of the things you say...




It's called a forum and people express opinions. Not sure how you feel you are exempt from the same activities. I been called a bald faced liar when I have presented supporting evidence to back my assertions. I have been attacked for having opinions and experiences different from what you portray in your rosy world of claims handling.



I have never attacked you or T personally with the name calling that has been directed at me. This is a forum people are free to express their experiences and your attempt to discredit mine is vicious.



I don't recall ever ridiculing a poster as you and T did by pointing out their obvious poor spelling and grammar. I've often thought of collecting yours and T's mispellings and grammatical errors pointing them out, but I don't play that nasty game.



You wouldn't last a half a day on an truly open forum such as Prodiscussions that is not moderated and people are not afraid to speak without revealing their true identiy if they wish. A lot of the stuff that passes off as reality on this site, would not pass the bs o meter over there.



They know the truth and many of them have been victimized by the power and might of insurers for failing to obediently comply. I have total respect for those people, I have lost it for some here. The only people that are attacked over there as you call it, are just given a dose of reality. They chose to play with insurers as partners and got burnt.



The collision industry should not be influenced by the insurance industry. The ones that still think insurers wish good will on our industry are quickly rebuffed. When they come to realize the truth in our posts, many come back and ask for help. For some it is too late, they were steam rolled by insurance partners and no longer needed. Others that are willing to advocate for consumres who are our true customers, have redemption in our eyes and we help those who want to help themselves and not stab other collision partners in the back at first opportunity.



I am sure you do not see a lot of my rhetoric or this activity in Missouri, as Missouri is very heavy in DRP agreements as they are not forbidden. Most do not have the fortitude to stand up for themselves for fear of offending an industry that is crushing them. For the most part they all bought into the concept of working with you as partners. It's almost like Israel's plight with the Palastinians. Insurers keep coming back wanting more concessions from collision owners and policy holders to help them. Shops give a little and concede and you keep coming back with demands of more concessions.



The associations here kept giving til they have no more left to give, and all they hear is sorry. Many will go out of business for relying on the insurance industry promises to be partners. Some wanted legislative change which I personally disagree is needed to level the playing field between insurers and collision owners. If the laws that are already on the books would simply be enforce with more punitive damages to insurers, the field would level itself.


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:25 pm   Post subject:   

Ok...I'm jumping in to play Devils Advocate. I have been in the Insurance industry for a very short time and have work profusely with repair shops before hand. I know for a fact that the work and parts from some repair shops are not priced accordingly. When insurance companies get involved this supposed discount that Mike is speaking of is actually bringing the cost of the repair/part to the invoice cost therefore the cost of the work is then where it should be.



I am not saying that all shops work this way but since everyone likes to make analogies...lets look at Health and medical. When you go to a doctors office mention to them that your changing jobs and might not have insurance. When the bill comes from your former provider with an enormous amount that must be paid to the doctors office you then make the call to the DO. When you state the situation they "re-adjust" the cost of the appt or whatever you are there for. That is a form of mark up because they know the insurance company will pay.



My point being the fact that auto shops have their mark up, doctors offices have their mark ups, retail shops mark up and insurance companies have their mark ups. It is the way life goes. In the long run the excess mark up goes to pay the employees of each location thus still making each business work.



This is not the insurance companies fault nor is it the auto shops fault. What should be happening is the the price of the part/work that is being done should be at market rate and not marked up and the "discounts" that insurance companies are asking for should be passed on to the insured if it is not already.



To finish...I don't think anything will be resolved between the people participants of this post. Everything that has been stated has been very educational on all sides and I appreciate the dialog.



That was my two cents. Very Happy

slappy
Member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 01 May 2008
Posts: 56


0.08 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 4:51 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
I see way too many consumers posting about how upsetting their experiences are with many insurance company representatives on this forum.
What is "way to many"? 1%, 10%? Simple truth is, you see very little posts about problems created by adjusters. You do see people posting who have problems and questions about insurance claims. But are you expecting to see something else (questions about dogs, perhaps) on an insurance forum?



Quote:
Your industry interference in the collision industry has contributed to lowering the quality of repairs in the last 20 years by trying to manipulate the repair process and paying for cheap parts and cheap repairs.
Says the people who have something to gain by taking this point of view (body shops, lawyers, people who make money off DV claims, etc). But YES we have kept repair costs lower, thank you for the complement!



Quote:
But this is the perception of consumers and independent shops and shops that suffer tortious interference from insurers who blatantly spew mistruths about the character of shop owners that refuse to bend over and kiss the kysters of insurance adjusters who are drunk with their perceived authority and power over my industry.
I think this kind of sums it up. Mike you claim that you do just fine without insurance claim repairs but I think it's pretty obvious that this is not true. You work the DV angle to make money on the side (you make it sound like you don't charge for this but we all know you make as much money as you can from it) and you complain that insurance companies steer people to DRP shops. I'm betting it limits the business your getting and your just a little upset about that. I understand that 100% and would agree with this if I were in your shoes.



Quote:
I'll lose no sleep concerning myself with what you or your tag team buddy T spew in attempts to discredit what is truth, I am sorry it bothers you guys to hear differently.
That's good...it's recommended that we get 7-8 hours of sleep every night. I'll have to draw the line if you start calling me "Mr. T". Smile



Quote:
I would expect nothing less of you or T. You have been trying to discourage me from helping people with alternative points of view and attempting to draw me into confrontation that which show me in the light that you wish to paint me. Sorry you have failed.
Discouraging? I hardly think so! I'm just asking for some truth. If you find that "discouraging", then so be it.



Quote:
Have a great holiday weekend. I'll be busy helping policy holders in southwest missouri and southeast kansas try to get paid for all their hail and storm damage where cat team adjusters come in and pay half what is owed.
Out of the goodness of your heart I suppose. Not making any money off this? After all, if you made money off of it, per your own statements, no one should trust your information. I'll be working on my yard if it stops raining.

Quote:
It almost appears that the method to underpay or pay for pdr repairs on two inch hail is intentional.
Damn those PDR people taking business away from the body shops! Good thing you're out there looking out for the interests of the body shops... I mean insureds.

Quote:
Did I mention that the insurance industry profits have risen almost 5 billion annually even though record losses have been paid out after hurricanes, wildfires, and Tornadoes?
Actually I think catastrophic losses are probably down, for a change, this past year. You think like many people think... that insurance companies are banks. They are not. Those "profits" are required to be held (as unearned premium and other reasons) in order to address prior years losses and future losses. When your insurance company charges you $1000 for your automobile policy that year, you'd call that "profit". What happens 2 or 3 years later when you kill someone and the carrier needs to pay a $1,000,0000 claim? Kiss that $3000 in "profit" good buy for the past 3 years and for how many more years? Many insurance companies operate at a loss ratio of 90%-100% (meaning that they pay out on claims almost as much as they collect in premiums. But they still make money as they invest those premiums before they are paid out (again, someone usually does not have a claim every year). But you have a recession or something (hmmm) and those carriers can easily lose those "profits". You also have a recession and the insurance companies stand to lose millions in fraudulent claims.

Quote:
The only reason I even began exploring DV, I saw it as a way for consumers to be made whole.
That's nice of you. Doing all that and not making a dime off it. The body shop business must be doing well.

Quote:
it may improve the chances of a quality repair being made and less junk yard parts be employed.
Why such a hater? First people making a living off PDR and now people who run salvage yards. What...? Those parts are actually OEM but cost far less so the market up and pure profit to the body shop is less? Damn. PDR also maintains the factory finish and does not require welding of parts and fillers? Again, cutting down the need of good old fashion body work? Damn them too! Seriously, your complaining about salvage parts? You're fading quickly.

Quote:
Insurers are attempting to make collision repair a assembly line remanufacturing process when the people that perform those repairs are in fact artisans and craftsmen who are underpaid for their skill levels.
I'll say! It take a lot of skill to unbolt and bolt on a fender. They should be paid more then $50/hour (if they work slow). After all, the rest of us make at least that. It's so bad there are one 1 or 2 shops in every town.

Quote:
Their counterparts in the Mechanical industry make higher wages thus discouraging new young talent wanting to become collision specialists.
Yup, next we are going lower the minimum wage. I've never understood the large difference either... other then perhaps more expertise is needed to know what's causing a problem with an engine then determining what is wrong with a dented fender. Can I figure one of those out? Yup! So one must be much less challenging then the other.

Quote:
You really ought to check out those Youtube exposes made by television news reporters on how horrible some of today's collision repairs are, primarily because of insurers trying to be thrifty and cutting corners, imposing their ideas of quality on uneducated consumers and the DRP hackers that choose to make the insurer their customer rather than the vehicle owner.
I have no doubt that it happens. But what percentage does this account for? If I thought the news was a reflection of the majority, I'd not step foot out of my house ever again. Also, why is a body shop making repairs it _knows_ are not correct? Is the insurance appraiser holding a gun to the owners head when people are not looking? Is it so very easy to make most shop owners perform unsafe repairs?



Are you referring to videos like this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgpiAExwn-g



Seriously, perhaps you were referring to one like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ4rugklWxg



Where the repair shop make unsafe repairs to a rear bumper and used glue instead of a bolt. What is clear to me from the video but may not be clear to many people is that Progressive paid for the proper repairs and the tech doing the work cut corners in order to make some extra money. That is, Progressive (the insurance company) paid to have correct repairs done on the vehicle and the tech (the body shop) took the money but made unsafe repairs to the vehicle. Hmm... you should read that again as it sounds like the insurance company did everything right yet the body shop screwed up big time! Is this Progressives problem as they recommended the shop? Yup! No doubt about that! But did Progressive actually cause or create the unsafe repairs/problem? Nope. This could have happen at any shop, DRP or not. Watch the second 1/2 of the video where Progressive inspects the vehicle after it's repaired. This is great, but of course they can't look at the hidden work. The insurance company can only do so much. But if this person chose not to use Progressive's shop, she could have very well have taken to the same shop on her own, where the same thing would have happened. Or to another shop, one that is not monitored at all, and the same thing could have happened. Does this mean Progressive (the insurance company) is the problem? Nope.



But you would have us believe that ALL insurance companies are crooks and ALL repair shops, including your own, are just innocent victims. The glaring problem with this... it's a small narrow look at a much larger picture. I have the ability to open my eyes and see problems that exist as they compare overall. You, however, choose to look so narrowly at one small aspect that your judgement is clouded.
tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:16 pm   Post subject: I would expect nothing less from you t.  

Quote:
I think this kind of sums it up. Mike you claim that you do just fine without insurance claim repairs but I think it's pretty obvious that this is not true. You work the DV angle to make money on the side (you make it sound like you don't charge for this but we all know you make as much money as you can from it) and you complain that insurance companies steer people to DRP shops. I'm betting it limits the business your getting and your just a little upset about that. I understand that 100% and would agree with this if I were in your shoes.




T I am backlogged until mid july another non issue and assumption on your part. My customers find me and are loyal to me even when insurers attempt to paint me a criminal with false accusations. As far as DV, If insurers paid for quality repairs, there would be no need for my services or DV.





Quote:
Damn those PDR people taking business away from the body shops! Good thing you're out there looking out for the interests of the body shops... I mean insureds.




As usual you missed the greater point, and made an another assumption based on not having facts yourself. I know very many good pdr people, I send them business routinely and I even have some who's work is so good, I am willing to accept the liability for subletting them space in my shop. What I am not willing to accept is insurers paying for repairs that are not pdr repairable when they know it. I have pdr skills and equipment, I know when it can and can not be done properly such as estimates using the technique on non oem paint which will crack. Some adjustes simply do not know the difference.



Quote:
Seriously, your complaining about salvage parts? You're fading quickly
.



Again off the mark, I buy quality used parts when appropo. I get paid for completely disassembling the new and old to transfer customer parts to unknown used parts. Used doors with power window regulators carry a 30 to 90 day warranty. Used parts have multiple layers of paint film thickness that insurers feel do not need to be removed when paint manufacturers will not warranty excessive mil thickness. Insurers balk at this as being necessary to return to pre-loss. DRP's sheepishly grin and bear it.





As for those you tube videos it runs both ways, I saw one today of four people convicted of insurance fraud; rightly so, for running a van into a tree intentionally.

The problem is that I see no oversight or responsibility, or liability on behalf of insurers for many of the repairs they insist their partner shops make. And when they are exposed they are allowed to remain on the programs. I have never had the desire to be a drp shop. I have developed my business on the referrals of satisfied customes rather than giving a concession to an insurer such as 770 dollars in parts discount on one job that I audited this past week.



I have seen excellent work perfomed by drp and non drp shops alike despite interference from insurers. The quality of the work is fine. I can't do a darn thing about the perception that drives down the value of a wrecked car. That is brought on by both shops and insurers alike. After all, it isn't my contract or policy that promises to restore to preloss condition. I kick some work to the curb simply because I will not use suspension parts or reman wheels that insurers will not accept the liability for when the oem manufacturer recommends against.



During an inspection I did recently, I made notes, took pictures, and recommended that the vehicle owner attempt to reconcile the issues with the shop before complaining to the insurer so that the repairs would not be an issue on the DV.



I wish I made minimum wage for the hours I put in emailing consumers with answers to their questions regarding DV and the time I spend helping them collect, but I don't. I have a passion for my industry much like you have for yours. I just don't think your industry has any legal right to interfere with my contract with my consumers just like I do not have a legal right to negotiate an insurance claim on behalf of consumers.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW7aVkC6ltQ



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzW4DUGpmgs&feature=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjlR23H4yiA&feature=related



Claims abuse example



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQJOutgb8CA&feature=related



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQJOutgb8CA&feature=related



Quote:
But you would have us believe that ALL insurance companies are crooks and ALL repair shops, including your own, are just innocent victims. The glaring problem with this... it's a small narrow look at a much larger picture. I have the ability to open my eyes and see problems that exist as they compare overall. You, however, choose to look so narrowly at one small aspect that your judgement is clouded.




I have never said all insurers are crooks, Those are yours and Lori words. Just like I say there are bad shops, bad repairs, there are bad adjusters and claims handling practices, but not all. The collision industry does not have the capacity to hold an anvil over the head of it's partners, those partners are subject to the whims and misguidence of people who are not repair experts.


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:31 pm   Post subject: Lets talk about parts profit  

Quote:
This is not the insurance companies fault nor is it the auto shops fault. What should be happening is the the price of the part/work that is being done should be at market rate and not marked up and the "discounts" that insurance companies are asking for should be passed on to the insured if it is not already.




Lets just let the insurance company pay for all the parts, be liable for them, arrange for the ordering, purchasing, distributing and warehousing them until ready for use by the shop.



Then lets eliminate all parts profit and change it all to a reasonable labor rate commensurate with other skilled artisans such as plumbers, carpenters, welders, sewer cleaners, lawn mower repair men, etc.

That should put the labor rate somewhere around 75 to 95 dollars per hour. Essentially parts profits are now used to pay overhead, those items that insurers claim they do not owe for, and any improvements, expansion, and education.



We receive parts discounts from manufacturers from 15 to 30 percent. The federal government has historically placed us under manufacturing. Manufacturers have a profit markup excessively higher than we are now receiving. You take away our parts markup and discounts you take away all the other things I mentioned that are necessary to run a profitable shop.

Many shops are now running on margins of 2 to 3 percent profit leaving little to expand and educate and bearly meet overhead expenses let alone purchase new equipment.



A parts markup of 25 percent is not the same thing as a discount of 25 percent. Other examples;



Markup Examples:

30% 40%

Cost $ 1.00

Sale Price $ 1.30 $ 1.40



Cost/Sales $1.00/$1.30 $1.00/$1.40

COGS 77% 71%



Gross Profit/Sales $.30/$1.30 $.40/$1.40

Gross Profit 23% 29%



Thus a 30% markup means a 23% profit

and a 40% markup means a 29% profit.





Cost of Good Sold:

A 70% costs of goods sold mean a 30% gross profit.

A 60% costs of goods sold mean a 40% gross profit.



COGS Examples:

COGS 70% 60%

Gross Profit 30% 40%

Cost $ 1.00



Costs/COGS = Sale Price

$1.00/.70 $1.00/.60

Sale Price $ 1.43 $ 1.67



Cost/Sales $1.00/$1.43 $1.00/$1.67

COGS 70% 60%



Gross Profit/Sales $.43/$1.43 $.67/$1.67

Gross Profit 30% 40%



Schedule:

Mark-up Cost Profit

4.0 25.0% 75.0%

3.0 33.3% 66.7%

2.8 35.7% 64.3%

2.5 40.0% 60.0%

2.4 41.7% 58.3%

2.2 45.5% 55.5%

2.0 50.0% 50.0%

1.8 59.5% 44.5%

1.6 62.5% 37.5%

1.5 66.7% 33.3%


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:56 pm   Post subject:   

Slappy if I understood your post correctly, I've always agreed (if I did not understand it, then I'm way off). I think Mike also has problems with things like insurance companies paying a slightly lower labor rate. In my area, the average charge is $42/hour for SM. Some shops charge $40/hour and I if I re-wrote their estimate I should lower my rate to theirs but I usually leave it as it is. Some shops want $44. I usually leave mine at $42 and I've never had anyone complain yet. Some shops think if they put the word "Specialty" in their name that they deserve $50/hour. I leave my rate at $42. Now, if a shop ever called me wanting more, I'd have a discussion with them to see why they thought they should get paid more then many other people. But this is not the point I'm trying to make. Mike says that this is the insurance company dictating the price the shop charges and it should not be the insurance companies business. I see his point but it does not hold much weight. The insurance company is paying the bill _for_ the customer. So the insurance company certainly should have a say. Mike does not like this as he'd rather charge whatever he wants and thinks the insurance company should just pay it. Of course the customer does not mind... as they are not paying the bill. Also, Mike will write up a nice DV report for them on the side and become their best friend. What Mike does not mention is that the insurance company is trying to keep labor rates and labor times more reasonable. Are some of these amounts too low? Probably. But shops can always refuse to work for those prices and will soon realize that they will need to be paid. But this is the process of commerce and capitalism. There are two major forces that drive prices... the person providing the goods or service and the consumer. Both will usually differ when it comes to what should be charged.

tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:22 pm   Post subject: There in lies the problem.  

Quote:
I see his point but it does not hold much weight. The insurance company is paying the bill _for_ the customer. So the insurance company certainly should have a say.




I am billing my vehicle owner who is my customer. If every shop chose to ignore the intimidation of price constraints and effectively decided they deserved a higher return on their investment and the new prevailing rate became 75.00, you would still say it is not deserved. We're back to who lets you decide what another entire industry is deserving of in a return on their investment.



You, the insurer are not my customer, you are not paying the bill, you are indemnifying the vehicle owner for their losses or paying a settlement based upon the negligence of your insured for which you are legally liable after proof of loss. You may mail the check to me, hand it to me, but the matter of fact is that you are paying for a loss to the consumer not my bill. I have no contract with any insurer, I receive payment from vehicle owners with my name on a check presented by an insurer but that is only to satisfy the uniform commercial code, not any negtotiated agreement for which I am not licensed to perform.



You still think because you pay a shop a check on behalf of consumers that you are paying us and implying we are subcontractors of yours when we are not unless a shop as signed an agreement to do so.



By the way, the final invoice of repairs I audited from a St louis body shop dealer was 56.00 per hour. If those mechanical repairs were performed by the same dealership service department rather than collision department, the insurer would have paid over 100.00 per hour.



I can post my rate at what ever labor rate I choose, I can even charge in dollars rather than hours in my state. Your policies state that you will pay the prevailing rate based on a labor rate survey conducted by you, but those surveys are proprietary information when requested. Some insurers are so defiant in conducting accurate labor rates studies that in all likely hood, independent auditors will be assigned to conduct those studies after a few legislative changes in some states.



DRP shops who have agreed to work cheaper and faster for those referrals should not have their lower rates calculated in to those studies either. Those are coerced lowered carrots dangled in front of hungary desperate shops.


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 8:35 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
We're back to who lets you decide what another entire industry is deserving of in a return on their investment.
It's really quite simple... I'm the one paying the bill. If you want to look at it one sided, this is fine. I said it before and I'll say it again... the insurance company pays $50/hour. You charge $60. I tell my insured that I can find 10, 20, 30 shops that will charge $50. Now you have to explain to your customer why you charge more then the prevailing rate and so much more then most other shops. I've explained myself... now it's your turn. Have fun trying to keep that customer. You may do great work... but it's going to cost them money out of their own pocket.



Quote:
You, the insurer are not my customer, you are not paying the bill, you are indemnifying the vehicle owner for their losses or paying a settlement based upon the negligence of your insured for which you are legally liable after proof of loss.
You can work semantics all day long. We all know full well that the insurance is paying the bill (most adjusters will at least initially make payment to the person who suffered the loss).

Quote:
You still think because you pay a shop a check on behalf of consumers that you are paying us and implying we are subcontractors of yours when we are not unless a shop as signed an agreement to do so.
I've been around awhile and I see most every check being paid to the person suffering the loss, not direct to the shop (unless it's a 1st party loss with a lien, then it has both parties names on it). Supplements are usually paid to the shop but I confirm this is okay with the shop 1st.



So no, I don't contend that I'm paying the shop because I issue the check them. I contend I pay the shop as I pay for the repair cost to the person who suffered the loss and then they pay the shop. It's not hard to figure out that my check is really going to the shop.



Like it or not, this is how every aspect of insurance works. Health insurance also pays "reasonable and customary" rates. Workers Compensation... same thing. The laws provides for it.



I've also said this many times before.. your welcome to charge whatever you want. No insurance company is making you do anything. Just don't count on a lot of return insurance customers when they have to pay the difference between what most people in your area charge and what you charge.
tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:24 pm   Post subject:   

I

Quote:
can find 10, 20, 30 shops that will charge $50. Now you have to explain to your customer why you charge more then the prevailing rate and so much more then most other shops




I think independent shops refer to these shops as shops that prostitute themselves to insurers and perform repairs based on insurer estimates rather than creating a repair plan for the vehicle owner.



In Missouri like many states, The unfair claims practices generally say that if the insurer prepares and estimate themselves it must be for an amount that the vehicle owner can restore to preloss condition. The insurer seldom can do this by their own admission. So if the vehicle owner refused to take their vehicle to one of those shops of yours, the claims act also says that the insurer must guarantee the repairs. We generally find insurers really do not guarantee repairs, they may guarantee their shop can perform those repairs. Still holding the insurer liable.



I recommend the vehicle owner notify the insurer preferred shop that they must perform the repairs for the amount of the insurer estimate and that their work will be subject to a third party inspection. Suddenly many of those shops can not perform the repairs based on the insurer estimate.



Lets leave health insurance completely out of this as those policies are totally different than cash value policies.



Quote:
You can work semantics all day long. We all know full well that the insurance is paying the bill (most adjusters will at least initially make payment to the person who suffered the loss).




It's not semantics it contract law and indemnification. You are paying for losses, you are not paying the bill. The final invoice is the bill owed by the vehicle owner who only can authorize a repair with the shop and contract with them. If you were paying the bill that would make you my customer or part of the contracted party. Even your guestimates say the vehicle owner must authorize the repair. All that other threating and intimidating paragraphs that require a shop to agree to the scope of the estimate of the insurer would last ten minutes in court since we do not have a contract with each other.


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:46 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
In Missouri like many states, The unfair claims practices generally say that if the insurer prepares and estimate themselves it must be for an amount that the vehicle owner can restore to preloss condition. The insurer seldom can do this by their own admission. So if the vehicle owner refused to take their vehicle to one of those shops of yours, the claims act also says that the insurer must guarantee the repairs. We generally find insurers really do not guarantee repairs, they may guarantee their shop can perform those repairs. Still holding the insurer liable.
Please let me know where it states this. Here is a link to the Act:



http://www.sos.mo.gov/adrules/csr/current/20csr/20c100-1.pdf



I'll save you some time... scroll down to page 4, section D



I'll even quote that part:

"(D) Estimates.

1. If an insurer prepares an estimate of

the cost of automobile repairs, the estimate

shall be in an amount for which it may be reasonably

expected the damages can be satisfactorily

repaired. The insurer shall give a

copy of the estimate to the claimant and may

furnish to the claimant the names of one (1)

or more conveniently located repair shops."



What you state above is not even mentioned in the act! Your some how twisting partial information around to get your statement. As shown above, it simply states, "the estimate shall be in an amount for which it may be reasonably expected the damages can be satisfactorily repaired". Hmmmm, that is not even close to what you stated! Let's just be clear on this.... your not even CLOSE with your statement.



Quote:
It's not semantics it contract law and indemnification. You are paying for losses, you are not paying the bill. The final invoice is the bill owed by the vehicle owner who only can authorize a repair with the shop and contract with them.
Trust me... I understand indemnification and contracts. Your simply ignoring what I've stated... IF you want to go that route, YOU can explain to your customers why your charging more then many other shops in your area. After all, it's easy enough for the vehicle owner to find 10, 20 or 30 shops that WILL repair the vehicle for the lower amount. The party that gets screwed if you do it as you state is the vehicle owner (the insurance company will pay the "reasonable" cost of repairs, you will charge more and your customer will be required to pay out of pocket. Next time the vehicle owner will be going to a shop who will communicate with the insurance company so they don't have to pay out of pocket. I have no issue with that whatsoever.



What I'm saying is obvious to everyone who understands English... insurance companies and repair vendors need to work together to determine repair costs. If they don't, the person who suffered the loss _will_ be left holding the bag.



But really the bottom line is as I've stated before... if you as the body shop and the insurance company have no obligation to each other... why are you complaining about the rates that pay? This makes no sense. Just charge what you want and don't worry about what the insurance company is paying. Hey, problem solved. Move on. Nuff said.
tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 4:09 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
What I'm saying is obvious to everyone who understands English... insurance companies and repair vendors need to work together to determine repair costs. If they don't, the person who suffered the loss _will_ be left holding the bag.




The vendors and the insurers have been working together, thats the problem. who is looking out for the consumer other than shops not beholding to insurers that only are interested in filling their coffers.


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 1:10 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
What you state above is not even mentioned in the act!
TYPCIAL
Quote:
......Your some how twisting partial information around to get your statement
AGAIN TYPCIAL
Quote:
Hmmmm, that is not even close to what you stated!
OF COURSE...
Quote:
your not even CLOSE with your statement.
I think I'm going to start referring to all of these as 'mikeisms'....because they are in nearly every post he makes, is constantly and consistantly proved to spout half truths, based on well zero other than his opinion. Then when proved totally untrue, well he doesn't mention THAT part again...



Just a couple of points then I'm going to try and leave this mess of a thread...



First, Mike I don't see how you get ANY work done AT ALL, just from the sites I KNOW you are posting on, (and I'm sure there are many many more than I've found) seems to me that is taking up a minimum of six to eight hours of your day...so I really question that back log of business and just how busy you really are, unless of course you are one of those shop owners that set in your office and play on the computer all day while your worker bees slave away for less than they should be paid (per you that is)...if so good for you....but the numbers just don't jib.....



Again, I'll say I haven't seen any cases you've filed and collected or won on all of these tortious, criminal things being done to you by the big bad insurers...just can't imagine you leaving something like that alone Mike....I'll stay glued to case net watching and waiting...



The only time I ever called you a liar, and what I ACTUALLY said was what you said was a bald faced lie...was when you said, that all adjusters got bonus's for underpaying claims....so yes, I still stand by that, and say anyone that says that is a bald faced liar....period...I haven't (although it's tempting) to come right out and say the same about ALL the other half truths, and twisting you attempt to do...(there's what about three in this thread alone?) Those statements some how fly on these other ''body shop'' boards that consider you some kind of odd guru...oh wait I do know how they fly they WANT to believe you are shooting them the straight dope..and don't even bother to check the ''information'' you state.



From reading a few of your endless threads on another site Mike, sounds to me like you have a deep seated need for attention, and admiration....sad really...If you would put half the engery into fixing the problems that exist in your industry and mine, just imagine what you could accomplish....you NEVER have an equitiable plan to help the situation, instead just spew hate, and do all you can to foster bad feelings and relationships.

Quote:
What I'm saying is obvious to everyone who understands English... insurance companies and repair vendors need to work together to determine repair costs
tcope is right, and we in the industry (both) know that this IS the case more than 90% of the time...



Like it or not there are tons of shops that work well with insurance carriers, they aren't getting hurt, in fact they are very successful, and do look at it as a partnership to get the 'mutual' customers vehicle repaired to pre loss condition....(just so you readers know mike refers to any shop that gets along with a carrier or is a DRP on the other sites as whores, and worse and promptly attacks).....and these shops I'd say on the surface are a lot more successful than yours.....so somethings not stirring the kool-aid Mike....could it be that maybe just maybe you've burned so many bridges in your life that you have now completely missed the boat, and are a terribly bitter man?



Again if you're not part the solution you ARE part of the problem....think about it really, put your ill feelings for me aside, and think about using your 'powers' for good for a change.


_________________

"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr.
Lori
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

Lori
Forum Expert

Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8080

Location: Missouri
287.93 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:34 pm   Post subject: Typical Lori as well  

Quote:
Again, I'll say I haven't seen any cases you've filed and collected or won on all of these tortious, criminal things being done to you by the big bad insurers...just can't imagine you leaving something like that alone Mike....I'll stay glued to case net watching and waiting...




Already checked into it. You have to show pattern and practice. Adjusters are very good at making these statements before I ever see a lot of customers and they are discouraged, wind up at the preferred shop they were steered to, bad repair with cheap parts. End of the story.



I am sorry you are spending so much time trying to track me down on other forums, probably taking precious time away from your other activities. I am worried about this Cagney and Lacey thing you have going on sleuthing on my trail. Fact is, it is a known fact that insurers monitor our board and have been known to kick shops off of programs if they wind up discussing things they don't like. They have even pulled up posts attempting to discredit the poster in court. YOU aren't going to be stalking me are you? It wouldn't be like that Progressive insurance case where they infiltrated a guys church to get dirt on him and they were exposed.



Quote:
From reading a few of your endless threads on another site Mike, sounds to me like you have a deep seated need for attention, and admiration....sad really




I certainly will not find it if I was looking for it from anyone here. I get all the pats on the back my ego needs or requires simply by helping my customers obtain what is owed to them by helping them to understand why their insurer is so mean to them and not the friendly person they see on the commercials. I know you guys are overworked, because you're all over at job vent complaining about the long hours and work overload taking time away from your families. It has occured to me that you may be the one spending too much time in this board. You could add up all my post on all boards and they wouldnt add up to the time you pontificate in here with your Lorisms as well. If they were looking for a poster child to improve the image of adjusters and how they treat someone that challenges or ursurps their perceived authority, they wouldn't find them in here.



My wife has been preoccupied with finishing her masters degree leaving me a lot of time to check out some of the BS I find in forums. But Lori, I worry about you. Really, get out once in a while get a real life, interact with real people. I don't need your attention, simply quit preoccupying yourself with attempting to discredit me and calling me a liar. I am afraid I am ruining your image by bringing a side out of you that people need not see. They will be disheartened to realize you don't release fairy dust when you pass wind. It's obvious to others that you are trying to engage me into becoming as vicious and sarcastic as yourself and I will lose my temper and say something out of line so I can be banned from offering the repair industry perspective. I am about done here anyway. I can't post anything anymore without you or T harassing me when I am not even responding initially to your post but to others.



I make no apologies for being as passionate about your industry's interference in my industry's business and helping my customers just as you are about yours. How about your people don't tell my people how to properly repair cars and we will stay out of the business of having to help people settle their losses.



Quote:
Again if you're not part the solution you ARE part of the problem....think about it really, put your ill feelings for me aside, and think about using your 'powers' for good for a change.




You had to have read that quote over on Pro Discussions, it's the very same thing we tell shop owners that believe insurers are their friends and that if those shop owners would grow a set and take back control of their business and industry, insurers would stay in the business of insurance and not telling my industry how to repair cars and what they are owed for doing so.


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:49 pm   Post subject: Update  

Hi Lori, in a way I hope you are out enjoying the 3 day weekend instead of reading this. Remember a while ago when I was telling you what I thought about deceptive people in my industry, and how if they would cheat a car owner, they would cheat an insurance partner? Yesterday a vender told me that a franchise shop in my area is apparently being investigated by the SIU department of their largest drp. What he said was that they are talking to some ex-employees. I think this is great news, but I wonder if I am making more out of it than I should. Does this sort of thing happen all of the time?


_________________
Register Now to have your Insurance queries solved.
Cascade Dave
Guest







All times are GMT
 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ... 10, 11, 12  Next  
Page 4 of 12


Get free auto insurance quote
State Auto Insurance Laws in USA

USA Auto Insurance laws
Ask Community Experts

flash plugin

Quick Links

Must See

Community

Hot topics in forums

Latest in blogs

AmPmInsure on Facebook



Page loaded in 0.386 seconds.