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 Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:20 am Post subject: When to turn in Title/Power of Attorny for Total Loss settle |
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I got hit by Liberty Mutual's insured car by their fault. My very well maintained Accord 98 EX with only 107K miles was declared total loss. They want me to send the title and sign power of attorney and release the vehicle immediately, otherwise they will start charging me for the storage at towing facility.
Q1) We are still negotiating and I have not accepted the offer. Shall I wait for the settlement or can I send in the title and release the vehicle even though its not settled.
Q2) This is very absurd. They are offering me $4900 for my car and in their report they have listed 10 comparable vehicles. All of them are priced between $6000 and $8000 with average of $6800. I also looked around a lot and the lowest price I could find is $6900. How can I buy similar car when neither I nor they come up with any listing close to their offer price. The avg. of their own comprable; just out from their own report is $1800 more than their offer.
When I asked them to show me at least one listing, she came up with a random listing of $4900 not from their original report. The listing she came up with was dated 3 months ago. When I called the number on the listing it says that the number is disconnected.
After so many emails, she increased my offer by $200 only. What do I do now? I am just looking and I have not found any thing comparable to my car in the $5000 - $6000 range? She also couldn't come up with any listing within that range but refuses to increase the offer. I don't want to pay anything from my pocket when it was not my fault. Looks like there is no way I can replace vehicle even from private party for less than $6000.
What are my option other than going to court?
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makunag
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:49 am Post subject: |
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I am dealing with a claim like this right now....
The insurance company owes _reasonable_ storage charges. So the owner can be held responsible for any excessive charges. This is what they are telling you. Just because you don't want to move it does not mean the insurance company will then be liable for those additional charges. They are offer to pay, up front, to move the vehicle so a facility that does not charge storage. If you refuse... well, then the excessive charges are on you.
Some of the confusion may be that you don't need to give up the title and sign paperwork to have the insurance company move the vehicle. They should offer to move it and you are still the owner. I tell people if after it's moved, they want it back, I'll pay to have it towed to their home (of course, if they then give up the vehicle they have to pay to have it moved back to the lot I moved it to otherwise I deduct the salvage value of the vehicle). So by the insurance company moving the vehicle they don't own it. If you want to move it to another location, the insurance company should offer to send you a check for current storage and then only pay to have it towed into their facility if they need to take possession of it. What I'm also saying is that many people don't like the total loss offer so they think they can extort a higher offer by racking up storage charges on the insurance companies bill. Sorry, it does not work that way.
| Quote: | | My very well maintained Accord 98 EX with only 107K miles |
When I read the subject line and then this line, I knew what the problem was going to be. What you have in the view of the public eye is a 10 year old car close to its last legs. You may love the car and it might be in very good shape... but to someone buying it they see a 10 year old car that could quite or cost them a huge repair bill at any time. Also, look around at the price of new cars... you get just about steal one off the lot right now! This is going to lower the value of used car tremendously.
| Quote: | | I also looked around a lot and the lowest price I could find is $6900. |
I'm guessing this was the asking price? If so, the car is going to tell for a _lot_ less. Also, if this is a dealership or car lot then the price on the window is the retail price. The best definition of this amount I've found is from KBB:
"The Kelley Blue Book Suggested Retail Value is representative of dealers' asking prices and is the starting point for negotiation between a consumer and a dealer."
Well, it used to be a longer definition. It stated that the retail price included dealership expenses such as overhead, commissions, prep, and warranties.
What kind of warrenty comes with your car if you sell it? Would someone buying your car expect to pay the same for it as they would as from a car lot?
| Quote: | | The avg. of their own comparable; just out from their own report is $1800 more than their offer. |
From what you describe I think you're looking at a AutoSource or CCC report. There is a section that also lists the condition of your vehicle. I think you will find some deductions being applied 9condition, options, miles, etc.)
You also need to review the report to make sure other things are accurate, such as all the options and miles on the vehicle.
| Quote: | | When I called the number on the listing it says that the number is disconnected. |
I've dealt with something like this before. The database those companies use can be terrible. You need to bring this to the attention of the adjuster. They can ask the company that ran the report to perform a manual search. These reports tend to be more accurate. Have you also offered to submit values on vehicles that you've found? Many times these prices are not considered very hard (as the person locating them is going to choose only the highest asking prices they can find) but they might help.
I had a case like this a few months ago. The older lady kept telling me that she was not going to pay anything out of her pocket and the accident was not her fault, on and on. Now I have to say that I pay NADA retail price and really don't apply any deductions... so I pay out a higher amount on total loss claims. I guess this lady went car shopping and next time I spoke to her she was soooo happy! She found some smaller sporty car with a sunroof and all these options. I guess it was about the same price or perhaps a little more. So she was getting a much better car by chipping in a few bucks. This is what I recommend to people... look for a little better car and through a few bucks in. Perhaps you could find a 6 year old Honda for a little more money. |
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tcope
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 2:58 am Post subject: |
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I found it... here is KBB's info on Retail Value:
"The Kelley Blue Book Suggested Retail Value is representative of dealers' asking prices and is the starting point for negotiation between a consumer and a dealer. This Suggested Retail Value assumes that the vehicle has been fully reconditioned and has a clean title history. This value also takes into account the dealers' profit, costs for advertising, sales commissions and other costs of doing business. The final sale price will likely be less depending on the vehicle's actual condition, popularity, type of warranty offered and local market conditions. " |
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tcope
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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You don't say 'which' accord ex yours is (2dr. 4dr. 4 or 6 cyl)...or options, (alumn/alloy wheels, leather, power seats, without air, manual or auto tranny are the only options that 'matter' on this vehicle)...depends which ex it is but I'm getting clean retail anywhere from 5800-7k without benefit or deduction for options....also I know you say it's in great shape...but look at it with a negative eye...ANY unrepaired prior damage? cig. burn in seat, dash cracked, dents scrapes etc? have they deducted anything for this?
Tcope is of course correct, and I think you've misunderstood, no way could they be asking for your title, they just need the vehicle moved to a storage free lot...we see claims like this all the time, people think that if they refuse to move it, and it's incurring charges it will 'make' the adjuster increase their offer...it won't all it will get is you a big fat storage bill...allow them to move it to a free lot or your house...then continue your negotiations...
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Lori
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: insurance |
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| When I was reading the OP's post, I thought (maybe?) the Insurance comapny or Storage place DID ask for a Title. However.....I'm not an Insurance expert, of course, but........I don't know any Insurance company that would ask for one. Aslo...something about a POA? I'm STILL confused with that one. |
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sdchargersfan
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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POA, Power Of Attorney. Gives the insurance company the ability to change the name on the title.
Eventually the insurance company would need the title if the vehicle is a total loss. |
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tcope
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:40 pm Post subject: insurance |
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| Ok...I get it now. That DOES makes sense. Thanks for the clarification. |
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sdchargersfan
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 7:13 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Eventually the insurance company would need the title if the vehicle is a total loss. |
But definitely they don't need it before settling the claim or while negotiating with the claimant.
| Quote: | | I had a case like this a few months ago. The older lady kept telling me that she was not going to pay anything out of her pocket and the accident was not her fault, on and on. |
I'd like to know more about it. You actually paid more than ACV on a totaled car. But I think every adjuster won't follow this approach. What if the adjuster don't budge and pay-out an amount that can't get you a new car?
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Jane
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What if the adjuster don't budge and pay-out an amount that can't get you a new car? |
I _think_ this person still needed to pay something on the vehicle she was buying (I'm not sure). But it was something along the lines of having a gas guzzling full size vehicle with 100k miles on it and going to a smaller, sporty car with 50k miles on it and costing her a thousand dollars. I don't know all the details but the point was that sometimes it works out better if the person takes the total loss money _and_ puts it together with a little of their own money and gets a much nicer vehicle. People always complaint that they "can't find the same car for the money being paid". Well, I say don't look for a 10 year old car with 200k miles... you _aren't_ going to find it. But what about looking for a _much better_ car, for just a few bucks more? |
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tcope
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | People always complaint that they "can't find the same car for the money being paid" |
It's been my experience they DON'T look for that older 200k car...they want a newer nicer one, just want the carrier to pay for it... 
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Lori
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks all who replied. I finally settled, talking to supervisor helped a lot as for whom entire thing made sense. He was able to go by one of the current listing and verified from dealer that the similar vehicle listed originally as $8000+ sold for $6999, and offered me for $72xxx as my vehilce mileage was lower than the comparable. This offer was just right and reasonable and in line with the market price.
Huge difference between the first offer of 4900 and 2nd offer of 5200 and the final offer of 72xx. That is not right. Even their own comparable report proved that the car was worth lot more than 4900...but they were keep pushing for 5000. I just wonder how many people would have accepted first or second offer without fighting for themselves for what they truly deserve.
Here are the things I want to point out:
1. Only $120 was taken out as conditional adjustment, that proves its a clean vehicle even from their point of view.
2. All those who are saying that "I belive that is the asking price, it includes dealers profit and blah blah blah" - but what I don't understand that I need to buy car; not sell it. Is dealer just going to wave all profit and sell me for cheap, just b'cos I will tell them that my car got totalled and my insurance company didn't pay for your profit and fees? I can understand if a dealer list the vehicle above market price, one can negotiate well to bring it to the market price; but if the vehicle listed around the market price - you can't negotiate that much. So its just incorrect to assume that any listing we can produce is inflated "asking price" and the actual is 25%-30% less than the listed price.
In my case, I found at least 2 similar vehicle listed for 8500 and 8900 and I know that is overpriced and can be brought to 7000 range; but there were vehicles listed for 6000, 6900 and 7200 - one cannot negotiate the same amount on those. The lowest listing was for $6000, and I found was for LX model and higher mileage; when it was adjusted using there formula, the adjusted price came to 7160. It was very clear, out from there valuation report, the acv was around 7000 but they keep pusing for 5000.
I am glad it worked out; but this is very sad that you have to fight so much so get what you deserve. I don't think this is right. This is trying to fool people by first offering them unfair low amount and see if they accept it, and increment it in $200 until its clear that the customer is well informed and can't be fooled. Its $2000 differnce between the first offer and settled amount, and its huge.
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makunag
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad it's over for you don't forget they also owe you sales tax and title transfer fee...
| Quote: | | but this is very sad that you have to fight so much so get what you deserve. I don't think this is right. This is trying to fool people by first offering them unfair low amount and see if they accept it, and increment it in $200 until its clear that the customer is well informed and can't be fooled. Its $2000 differnce between the first offer and settled amount, and its huge. |
In your case, I think what you had on your hands was an inexperiened adjuster, (clearly since their supervisor handled it quickly with a phone call!)..no excuse the rep should've went to his/her supervisor when they figured out they were in over their head!
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Lori
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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>>>It's been my experience they DON'T look for that older 200k car...they want a newer nicer one, just want the carrier to pay for it...
That is incorrect to generalize. I am sure there are some people doing that; but there are many people who just trying to get the fair amount. This is the problem with the insurance company; they just assume that the person complaining is lying. In my situation, it was just hard to find 1998 with 107K....as most listed vehicles were 130K+.
#2, on my first response, I told them I will take even $3000 as long as they can provide me the similar vehicle listing within that price.
#3, They couldn't come up with any listing close to there first offer, the one they came up with for 4900 was incorrect, non-existence.
I think all problem arises with the fact that by default the insurance companies think 1. If the car got totalled is old - its worth nothing. 2. The owner of the car wants to make profit from this claim.
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makunag
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That is incorrect to generalize |
I'm not generalizing look again i said, | Quote: | | It's been my experience |
no debating that...my experience, no one elses.. | Quote: | | 1. If the car got totalled is old - its worth nothing. 2. The owner of the car wants to make profit from this claim. |
Not true...and we weren't talking specifically about your vehicle...we're talking about a ten plus year old vehicle with 200k or better....Did I not say I was getting 5800-7k ACV on your vehicle? But couldn't 'nail' it down without knowing 'which' ex it was? Also did I not agree, to 'no way' give up that title? Our point is how many 10 plus year old vehicles with over 200k are there out there? not many...so when someone says they cannot 'find' one for the ACV, it would actually be a more accurate statement to say, 'there just aren't any they are mostly at the salvage lot'...also if you have a 200k plus car that is totals, are you REALLY gonna want another 200k plus used car? doubt it...that's the point...sorry you're barkin' up the wrong tree if you think I think (or handle claims) | Quote: | | 1. If the car got totalled is old - its worth nothing. 2. The owner of the car wants to make profit from this claim |
Why would I be here trying to help people with their claims? 
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Lori
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but what I don't understand that I need to buy car; not sell it. |
If you bought a 10 year old car with 180k miles from me, I'd ask $50,000. This does not make your vehicle worth $50,000... which is what is being considered. | Quote: | | Is dealer just going to wave all profit and sell me for cheap, just b'cos I will tell them that my car got totalled and my insurance company didn't pay for your profit and fees? |
Who says you have to buy a car at a dealership? Why would you want to pay more at a dealership then from a private individual? Take those answers and see of they apply to you selling your vehicle. That is, the insurance company is basically paying your market value for _your_ vehicle. This information is obtained from private party sales as well as dealer sales. | Quote: | | The lowest listing was for $6000, and I found was for LX model and higher mileage; when it was adjusted using there formula, the adjusted price came to 7160. It was very clear, out from there valuation report, the acv was around 7000 but they keep pusing for 5000. |
Yup, that sounds like a report from CCC... and IMHO, THEY SUCK! The other _big_ problem is that many adjusters handling total loss vehicles don't even review those reports... or even know how to read them. They just look at the final offer number and that is that. | Quote: | | I am glad it worked out; but this is very sad that you have to fight so much so get what you deserve. I don't think this is right. |
Your right. I don't think the adjuster was trying to screw you over... it was just a little ignorance, a bad CCC report, and the nature of the beast. They paid a 3rd party to tell them what the value was on the vehicle. If this wrong? Ultimately its up to the person who suffered the loss to prove what their loss was. This never goes away... even if the insurance company comes up with their own value. It only makes sense that the owner of the vehicle should confirm what they are being told their vehicle is worth. But of course the offer from the insurance _should_ be accurate. In this case it appears it was not.
| Quote: | | This is the problem with the insurance company; they just assume that the person complaining is lying. |
Very true... this is also where an inexperienced and experienced adjuster can make a difference. If I talk to 100 people... 90 of them _are_ lying to me as an adjuster. It's my job to know when people are lying but a _good_ adjuster will be able to treat each person as a different person and not automatically assume they are lying. Many times I view my job like this... I have a big bag of money and people are just trying to steal it. It's my job to make sure they only take what they are entitled to. But what I also need to keep in mind is that this is a cynical way of looking at things. | Quote: | | I think all problem arises with the fact that by default the insurance companies think 1. If the car got totalled is old - its worth nothing. 2. The owner of the car wants to make profit from this claim. |
I'd certainly agree with at but another part of the problem in your case (as was mentioned) is that the report from CCC is not going to be very good as there are just not enough older vehicles for a good comparison. Conditions of the vehicle differ greatly, miles differ, and thee are just not many of them around. That is not to say that the insurance company should not realize this, just that its difficult to determine the value of an older vehicle. |
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tcope
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