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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:26 pm   Post subject:   

Unfortunately I have to go out of town for a few days and I won't have access to the internet. Thanks for all this information guys, I'll check back in a few days.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:01 am   Post subject:   

Get that D.O.I. complaint started. In some states the insurance company whom the complaint was filed against must pay the Dept. of Insurance for the cost of the investigation. If USAA feels that they are the least bit negligent in the handling of your claim you can see why they will immediately back off, pay your claim and close your file. Once they agree to your terms you can cancel the complaint. When an insurance company says no that is just the begining of the process. Be sure to let the claims MANAGER know of your intentions. He/she will probably rips the file out of the adjusters hands so fast you won't believe it. Once the file moves up the ladder it is amazing how nice and pleasant the managers and V.P.'s will be to you. You see it was all just a little mistake Laughing


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:03 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
I responded to my appraiser with this information and his argument was that the rates quoted to me were the standard "off the street" rates and that USAA has negotiated the $48 rate with every one of them, save the shop I chose.
I don't know if I'm buying that one. It sounds to me like he was just blowing smoke. I'm not saying that the shops won't honor the $48/hour charge... just that I doubt they have "ageed" to it before hand. I know some shops around here that put $50/hour on their estimates. I write it up at $42/hour and some carriers pay $40. These same shops will go by what I have written but they have not "agreed" to this before hand. As shops honor $42/hour, I can show that most every shop can make the repairs for this amount.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:19 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
If you pull your vehicle they will want to be paid the towing charge and tear down fees. If they want to be nasty, they might try to charge you storage (I doubt it though).
They may also try the whole ''retocking fee'' ...If you have made pretty much made up your mind...or are thinking about it...call them and tell them not to order parts, or cancel them NOW....bmw parts are a giant pain in the butt....I can all but guarantee they will be two weeks arriving atleast...so shouldn't be an issue getting them stopped...but you need to move quickly....is this shop a dealership by chance?



There is usually one or two shops in an area that have thrown up a brick wall and absolutely will not even (in some cases) allow ins adjusters on their property or certain adjusters...unfortunate for the vehicle owner....



I'm so sorry you are going thru this...Does USAA have a direct repair program that they (USAA) will warrant the repairs? If so think it over that's two (should be) warrantys to fall back on if necessary....



Please let us know if we can help in any other way and how this came out...



Could you share the city and state you are in please, I ask because if I remember correctly there is a BMW repair facility that is in a court battle with a carrier right now...which may explain some of this...



Also 'door' rates are usually NEVER charged to ANY insurance carrier whether they are a direct repair facility or not...Shops know that the carriers have done the research to find the usual and customary rates for a given area...and that is what is owed....As an example I know a couple of high end vehicle body shops (bmw, audi, etc) whose posted door rates are 65 (body rate) an hour, when the area is 46 per hour...when I ask about this, the shop manager says, 'yeah ignore that we only get that for warranty work, and walk ins'...this shop was not a DRP and I ask (didn't tell them) what is your true rate that you charge to other carriers, his answer? 46 an hour... Rolling Eyes


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:28 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
Get that D.O.I. complaint filed ASAP as there is nothing worse than a D.O.I. complaint in the eyes of a claims manager. Heads will roll if someone drops the ball in the face of a D.O.I. complaint. Be sure to mention getting the D.O.I. involved with everyone you talk with and follow up with a letter to that person memorializing the telephone conversation
Who on earth are we filing the complaint against and why? What has the carrier done thus far? Do you really think we all just shake in our boots at the mention of the DOI? seriously?
Quote:
If that adjuster fails to properly document the file and bring the consequence of D.O.I. complaint to his/her superior your not so friendly adjuster will be out of a job
Is that from experience or what? No one likes DOI complaints they are timelined, but I don't see anyone losing a job or getthing in to any trouble here, and easily answered....if you are talking about rates....while I'm at it that 1k cost to respond to a complaint is just plain untrue, and I'd be interested to hear where you got that info... Crying or Very sad
Quote:
They will eventually pay to have your vehicle repaired properly without discounts but it does take a bit of work on your part.
Who said there were any discounts?



I would however recommend talking to your adjusters immediate supervisor since there is a bad history with this adjuster and this shop....Would be a good idea to get someone without a 'history' if there is anyone....that's just common sense, the shop (and adjuster) may have other motives to not move from their stances, it's human nature....


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:22 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
I'll quickly sum up some answers for you... question, if you took your BMW into 5 different repair centers would you agree that you'd get 5 different repair amounts (if not, try it). As such, why is this? When you have the answer to that question, you will see why the USAA apprasial can be different from one shops estimate. Bottom line is that USAA will obtain an agreed repair price from the shop of your choice.




While you are at it, go to five different restaurants and ask for a ten oz steak dinner. You'll most likely find that the quality of the service, the preparation of the meat, the flavor, the PRICE will all be the same, right? And you should be able to pay exactly the same for that steak dinner regardless of whether a trained chef prepared it or an steakhouse pimple faced eddy grilled it in it's own fat, right?



Since you chose your shop based on recommendations of people you respect because of the appreciation of the quality of the car you selected, would it not make sense to consider that they only do quality work with genuine parts? But then you could just get steakhouse eddie's repair version with cheap parts, and inexperienced non certified repairers that can not offer a BMW warranty that stays with the car rather than an insurer warranty that ends at the transfer of ownership.



When your insurer names that one repairer that they guarantee will repair your car for that price, put that shop on notice that their finished work will be inspected by a certified bmw dealer repair shop. It's quite possible their tune will change and all of a sudden they many no longer be able to repair for the agreed upon price that an insurer claims they must obtain. I have yet to see a policy that says an insurer must obtain an agreed price, most policy's state that they are contractually obligated to pay for repairs that will return your vehicle to the pre loss condition or similar language. There is only one state that I am aware of that requires a shop to negotiate a repair, and that is Massachusetts.



You should, if you elect to change repairers, make the insurer select the shop and hold them liable since they claim they can restore your vehicle to preloss condition as they are contractually obligated to do for the amount of their estimate. Then see if the certified dealer would be willing to inspect the quality of the repairs the insurance company guaranteed were sufficient. It would then be possible to hold the insurer accountable for the quality of repairs and then you may find out that the insurer was possibly looking for the cheapest repair. You may find that the insurer could then be obligated to pay you the amount it would require to re-repair your vehicle to true preloss condition.



Judging by the poster's own survey of shops, it would appear that the insurer is artificially restraining trade or interfering with the market for cost of repairs in a luxury car market by refusing to pay the prevailing rate for that area. You really really need to consider working with the shop that has your best interest in mind and not a shop that simply agrees to an insurers criteria and works for a labor rate that is lower than the prevailing simply to be on that insurer's preferred shop list. You should desire for your shop to be an advocate for your interests and not the insurers in my extremely biased opinion.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:46 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
While you are at it, go to five different restaurants and ask for a ten oz steak dinner. You'll most likely find that the quality of the service, the preparation of the meat, the flavor, the PRICE will all be the same, right? And you should be able to pay exactly the same for that steak dinner regardless of whether a trained chef prepared it or an steakhouse pimple faced eddy grilled it in it's own fat, right?
So your saying that it is solely due to the quality of work and the higher the price, the better the work? Could you explain to me then why labor times are different from shop to shop? I see this way more then rate differences. By your estimation a person who has been doing the job for 20 years is going to need _less_ time to make a repair then someone a week out of body shop class. Yet, this is not reflective in the repair time. Why is that? I'll answer it for you and clarify my prior point... it's mostly subjective. Different shops will have difference of opinions on how long something takes and how much it should cost. If _body shops_ can have difference of opinions, an insurance company can as well. Seems fair and logical to me.



Quote:
But then you could just get steakhouse eddie's repair version with cheap parts, and inexperienced non certified repairers that can not offer a BMW warranty that stays with the car rather than an insurer warranty that ends at the transfer of ownership.
What type of warranty is BMW offering on their replacement parts put on an 03 BMW? So what your saying is if the OP has OEM parts put on his 03 BMW, BMW will transfer any warranty over to anyone who buys the vehicle? From what I could find, BMW only warranties OEM replacement parts to the original purchaser. Is this correct?

Quote:
since they claim they can restore your vehicle to preloss condition
Is that what the USAA policy states? I'm thinking your simply guessing here. Remember that USAA, Progressive and a few other companies changed the wording of their policies many years ago after they were held accountable for this.

Quote:
Judging by the poster's own survey of shops, it would appear that the insurer is artificially restraining trade or interfering with the market for cost of repairs in a luxury car market by refusing to pay the prevailing rate for that area.
Wow, that is really taking a few liberties with the posts! There is actually no good indication of that at this time. Someone is really jumping the gun!

Quote:
You really really need to consider working with the shop that has your best interest in mind and not a shop that simply agrees to an insurers criteria and works for a labor rate that is lower than the prevailing simply to be on that insurer's preferred shop list. You should desire for your shop to be an advocate for your interests and not the insurers in my extremely biased opinion.
I certainly agree with this. As an adjuster I recommend it.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:59 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
an steakhouse pimple faced eddy grilled it in it's own fat, right?
wow was that gross.. Rolling Eyes geeeze your mind works funny...
Quote:
would it not make sense to consider that they only do quality work with genuine parts?
I would certainly hope not! and would bet he has sourced used parts not a/m....unless maybe a light or condensor, don't even think there are very many a/m bmw parts as I recall...so those are ''genuine'' bmw parts...so now what's your argument?
Quote:
But then you could just get steakhouse eddie's repair version with cheap parts, and inexperienced non certified repairers that can not offer a BMW warranty that stays with the car rather than an insurer warranty that ends at the transfer of ownership.
You don't know that! Where does it say that?
Quote:
When your insurer names that one repairer that they guarantee will repair your car for that price, put that shop on notice that their finished work will be inspected by a certified bmw dealer repair shop. It's quite possible their tune will change and all of a sudden they many no longer be able to repair for the agreed upon price that an insurer claims they must obtain.
Maybe I read something wrong...I don't see where there is 'one' shop, but a lot of shops that will repair it for that sheet..the labor rate is the majority of the issue as I understand it....I doubt any tune will change, shops don't qake in their boots at the thought of a reinspection mike...well good shops don't....bums would i suppose...
Quote:
I have yet to see a policy that says an insurer must obtain an agreed price, most policy's state that they are contractually obligated to pay for repairs that will return your vehicle to the pre loss condition or similar language. There is only one state that I am aware of that requires a shop to negotiate a repair, and that is Massachusetts.
Thanks Mike you just proved the ins carrier's position...they are not required to pay these high door rates...just what it takes to put the car back in pre loss conditon...which is not at 60 bucks an hour!
Quote:
You should, if you elect to change repairers, make the insurer select the shop and hold them liable since they claim they can restore your vehicle to preloss condition as they are contractually obligated to do for the amount of their estimate. Then see if the certified dealer would be willing to inspect the quality of the repairs the insurance company guaranteed were sufficient. It would then be possible to hold the insurer accountable for the quality of repairs and then you may find out that the insurer was possibly looking for the cheapest repair. You may find that the insurer could then be obligated to pay you the amount it would require to re-repair your vehicle to true preloss condition.
Good idea Mike!
Quote:
You really really need to consider working with the shop that has your best interest in mind
I couldn't agree more! and I don't think this shop does!



Again, I'm betting it's used parts...maybe reman on some which is still oem...there just are not that many a/m parts available for these vehicles...but as I see it...it's mostly the labor rates that are the issue right?



High price does not EVER in ANYTHING guarantee quality EVER EVER EVER! In fact especially in large metro areas, in all lines of business there are people that intentionally charge crazy rates, (beauty shops, decorators, resturants)...to pull big money clientele....and will even say so! Are they any better than the lower priced ones? Most of the time no, average at best....and by the way I've had some of my best meals at hole in the wall joints...haven't you?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 2:42 pm   Post subject: it is apparent that...  

[a few caps for emphasis only]

There are several amateur insurance folks on this board who (as always) are willing to lend a hand at screwing the vehicle owner.



It's okay though Emp - they think that they own your car - and - they think they can apply the provisions and limitations of an insurance contract that you never signed let alone *saw* - to you.



USAA is the insurer of the tort feasor (the person who injured you and your car- herein after "dude"). As such you are under no obligation to USAA nor them to you.



You have established that your selected repairer is "reasonable" with regard to rates. It is resonable for you to select your repairer and have the vehicle repaired in as timely and correctly a manner as is possible. It is unreasonable for anyone to assume that you will accept anything less than that which you had prior to the impact.



I.e. , if dude spilled your Starbucks - he owes you for cleaning or replacing the interior until all evidence of that is gone AND dude owes you for another Starbucks AND dude owes you for the loss of use of your Starbucks for the time you were without it.



Have they been paying you the dollar figure per day of what it costs to put you into a BMW rental? They owe you - whether you rent a BMW or not. If they want you in a KIA they pay the difference.



Let's also look at BMW specific repair procedures. Make sure that these are followed and that any repairer can quote them as though they are the Old Testament. I'll wager dollars to Krispy-Cremes that USAA's favorite repairer has no clue. Sructural corrections are in IMPERATIVE.



It is reasonable for you to receive a repaired vehicle that will perform exactly as it did in this impact - in a subsequent impact. Any engineer (or accident reconstructionist will tell you that there can be no assurance whatsoever that even if the vehicle is repaired **exactly** as the manufacturer specifies or recommends - that it will perform the same way the second time around.



As to diminished value. This is a third party loss - no contract limitation on someone else's policy or any DOI lackey can make that an irrecoverable loss. It is real - tell them you will recover it - along with your payment for proper repairs that duplicate pre-loss as nearly as the space time continuum allows - Oh and have the shop check any seat recliner or restraints that were in use at impact. BMW likely mandates that all restraints in use at impact be replaced. this is not special to BMW most mfg's have such a policy.



Any child safety seats in the vehicle at impact must also be replaced whether they were in use or not. This is usually even specified by state law.



Do NOT ask or expect any repairer to negotiate on your behalf. They are not licensed to do this. There is a specific license for this service which is required by law in all states. It is called **attorney**. If you cannot find one that understands or that is not willing to accept and argue the resonability of your position and that of a professional repair specialist - you need another attorney.



For help further contact ICAN200 . com, Dennis Howard can help you find someone competent. No offense to those folks here who "think" they know. I'm not an Attorney - however Attorneys regularly call me to remind them of things they forgot in first year Law School and to point out how they are being tricked by what is "usual and customary" versus what is "reasonable and necessary".



BTW since this is a "tort loss" and has NOTHING to do with anyone's insurance policy - there is not likely anything your DOI will offer but misinformation



Remember:



USAA owes you nothing. Dude owes.



Send him a letter and tell him you intend to be made whole. Do the math properly and refer to every action that his insurer is taking on his behalf as what "You are doing". He does not likely know (as most folks don't) that his insurer is stepping in - attempting to screw you over on his behalf. Tell him What the balance due will likely be for each element of the loss and make your demand. If you have an attorney still do the documents for the property on your own and insist that he make the demand on your behalf.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:15 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
USAA is the insurer of the tortfeasor (the person who injured you and your car- herein after "dude"). As such you are under no obligation to USAA nor them to you.
Amateur? At least we can read, "I was hit from behind in my '03 BMW while sitting stopped in traffic. The negligent party is at fault as per the police report. He's also uninsured. That means that my claim is filed with my insurance company (USAA) as an Uninsired Motorist Claim."
Quote:
they think they can apply the provisions and limitations of an insurance contract that you never signed let alone *saw* - to you.
Yup, I do think that as the OP _did_ sign the application requesting the policy (though, it is a contract of Adhesion) and the OP was sent a copy to review.



When you get your facts straight, let us "amateurs" know.

Quote:
You have established that your selected repairer is "reasonable" with regard to rates.
I don't think this has been established at all. We've never been told that many other qualified repair shops won't honor the $48 rate... only that the plaque over the door says they charge more. Truth is, this happens all the time and most shops simply lower their rates as requested. We all know that... some of us may just not be willing to admit it. But I'm also still not ruling out that USAA should change their rate allowance as I think rather then just _saying_ other shops will honor the $48/hour amount, they should have called to confirm and even provided the names of shops. This would have been much more convincing.

Quote:
Have they been paying you the dollar figure per day of what it costs to put you into a BMW rental? They owe you - whether you rent a BMW or not. If they want you in a KIA they pay the difference.
Good call... USAA _does_ owe loss of use as the UMPD takes the place of what the other party should be paying. I'd say many adjusters would forget this (but they would not be obligated to "offer" it)

Quote:
BTW since this is a "tort loss" and has NOTHING to do with anyones insurance policy
I think you are right for the wrong reason. The OP has UMPD and USAA is his/her carrier. As such USAA has an obligation to extend the coverage under the _terms of the contract_ and offer payment. If the OP wants to pass on a sure thing and thinks that a person who does not pay for insurance and drives legally is just going to hand over $10,000 then I think the OP would be in for a surprise ('cause we all know that the people who don't pay for auto insurance and still drive just have tons of money laying around). In the meantime of sending this letter and waiting for the at fault part to ignore the letter and then paying an attorney to file suit... the OP's car is just sitting at the repair center for months on end. Yeah... that is the way to go. Don't even think about using the coverage being paid for that will handle this situation in the matter of days.



[/b]But[/b] you are "correct" in eluding to the fact that the UMPD coverage takes the place what the other party would owe. UMPD is so rare I've not read over the coverage very often. But I'm betting it may have some limitations built in that the other person's legal liability may not.



But I also think your confused about who is insured with who and who has and does not have insurance.



Bottom line... you may not want to trust someone with 20 years experience handling insurance claims to know how insurance works but I'd certainly not place a lot of weight on a body shop person either.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:33 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
So your saying that it is solely due to the quality of work and the higher the price, the better the work? Could you explain to me then why labor times are different from shop to shop? I see this way more then rate differences. By your estimation a person who has been doing the job for 20 years is going to need _less_ time to make a repair then someone a week out of body shop class. Yet, this is not reflective in the repair time. Why is that? I'll answer it for you and clarify my prior point... it's mostly subjective. Different shops will have difference of opinions on how long something takes and how much it should cost. If _body shops_ can have difference of opinions, an insurance company can as well. Seems fair and logical to me.




In reality, everyshop should have a different labor rate. Every shop has a different cost of doing business. A posted labor rate is the rate that a shop requires to meet it's expenses and overhead and includes the margin of profit they desire to make. Makes no sense that, because my overhead is significantly lower or higher than another shop, that I should be paid or that I should charge the same amount that another shop does. It is only for the ease of insurers to control costs that a prevailing competitive rate is established. It is for their convenience in leveraging customers to settle claims based on what they have determined the cost to repair should be based which is the average cost of repairs and not the highest quality of repairs that may be necessary.



How can T have it both ways. He claims they do not control costs but when a majority of shops in an area state that their labor is higher than the insurer is willing to pay, he claims that they must work for an amount they have determined to be the prevailing rate based on a survey they claim to conduct but will not produce and make claims that it is proprietary information just like invoices that shops have for internal documents.



Fifty five dollars an hour for luxury vehicle work is not unrealistic. I do not begrudge a shop that invests in a dedicated bench and sends their techs to bmw, lexus, etc training to become certified. They should be able to charge a price that is consistent with the required investment and training.

Insurers would like you to believe that all shops should be able to perform quality repairs based on their determination and it simply isn't so.



Shops that attempt to stand by their rates based on their costs are labeled trouble makers for attempting to charge a fair price for the quality of their work. Then there are shops that wouldn't know quality if it hit them in the face. The fact that the poster researched and found the consensus was that the shop they chose was the best at what they do should speak volumes about their skill and quality. But in this forum that shop is labeled a skalleywag because they dare to charge a fair price and not bow down to charge the same price that an insurer claims that it could be repaired for.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:36 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
In reality, everyshop should have a different labor rate. Every shop has a different cost of doing business.
I'll just leave it as quote above. I can't disagree with that. Though it's not the case in the real world. It happens in most businesses. My Verizon may provide the best coverage but they have to keep in line with other carriers. The insurance company I work for does not use AM parts but we still have to base our rates on other carriers who use AM parts. I could go on and on.



I would tend to agree that lowered rates have everything to do with the insurance industry (thought I've not said it was a bad influence either... the big picture needs to be considered). Bottom line... the insurance industry pumps billions of dollars into the hands of body shops every year. Not trying to sound like the kind of the hill but without insurance only a few shops could afford to stay in business. So most shops _do_ depend on insurance money. But insurance companies are a business as well. In as much as it's claimed a shop is entitled to make as much money as they can, the same people need to admit that this is true of insurance companies as well (to not to admit to this just means that person is hypocritical). Does this mean that insurance companies want to pay the lowest amount possible? If by "possible" fairness is included, then yes. As such, insurance companies want to keep claim losses as low as possible. If this means that they can get most body shops to honor a lower rate then is posted on the shops boards, then I think this is fair. This is done all the time in many different areas. Look at auto dealerships... they post the retail price right on the side of the car. Does everyone pay this amount? Do people think that people paying less are just treating the dealer unfair and putting them out of business? Perhaps they provide better service and should be paid a higher amount.



So, who is to say what a shop should be paid. If you ask the shop they will say $1,000/hour (I know I would if someone would pay it). If you ask an insurance company they will have to say, what is the lowest fair amount (they are held to legal standards). So what is the lowest fair amount? I guess what most other shops are willing to accept.



Now I certainly understand that the body shop point of view... some shops do better work so they want to be paid more. I'm right there with you! I think I do a much better job them many people I work with (I don't really work "with" anyone in my company but lets just say I do). So I should be paid more and this should just be a matter of fact. Truth is, it's not a simple fact. I live in the real world where this happens to many people... no matter what their business is. But the truth is that I feel I'm paid enough and I make a good living. So when a body shop thinks they should be paid more, they can feel free to charge more and explain that they do better work. But this does not obligate the insurance company to pay those higher rates (read that again, it's just the plain, simple truth).



The last part is of the situation is what kind of work are those shops doing that are accepting less and are they cutting corners in order to work for those prices. We could debate this till the cows come home but I don't know if we could ever agree. Do I think that some cut corners? Yes. I've been known to cut corners when pressed for time. But do I blame the people paying me as they are not paying me enough? No. So should/can someone claim that by paying an acceptable lower rate is going to result in incorrect repairs? I say show me that these shops are simply not willing to make a little less profit on each job in order to get much more work and make a good living. If these shops were always cutting corners I'd think they would not be in business very long.



Mike, let me back up a little and mention one more thing... I think your real issue with all this is that insurance companies can get most other repair shops in your area to charge a lower amount. This means you have a difficult time charging a higher price for better work and "proper" work. I know I'm not arguing with you there and I don't think anyone else is. The problem is not even that you want to blame insurance companies for this. I can see your point but I don't think it's as clear as you would like it to be. We both know the issue _I_ have is the scare tactics used to prove the point. But these very same issues exist in all commerce. It's an issue that is much larger then you'd like for people to see and the same issue exists in all different lines of work. It boils down to the the point of view of buying or selling. Those views are going to differ. Neither one is right or wrong.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:09 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
So, who is to say what a shop should be paid. If you ask the shop they will say $1,000/hour (I know I would if someone would pay it). If you ask an insurance company they will have to say, what is the lowest fair amount (they are held to legal standards). So what is the lowest fair amount? I guess what most other shops are willing to accept.




You say potato, I say potatto! To imply that a shop is willing to accept simply means that the insurer set the price, it was not determined by competive market forces. Insurers have stacked the deck to their favor by funneling work to shops that will accept the lowest amount and steering them away from shops that choose to believe their customers are the vehicle owners and not the insurer.



Quote:
Not trying to sound like the kind of the hill but without insurance only a few shops could afford to stay in business. So most shops _do_ depend on insurance money. But insurance companies are a business as well. In as much as it's claimed a shop is entitled to make as much money as they can, the same people need to admit that this is true of insurance companies as well (to not to admit to this just means that person is hypocritical). Does this mean that insurance companies want to pay the lowest amount possible? If by "possible" fairness is included, then yes. As such, insurance companies want to keep claim losses as low as possible. If this means that they can get most body shops to honor a lower rate then is posted on the shops boards, then I think this is fair.




I am not trying to sound like you but let's use your analogy, if people didn't have jobs that provided them salaries you wouldn't be able to sell them insurance and invest it and make billions of dollars; so you need people with money to buy your product that is mandated by laws in everystate. You have a captive clientel that legislatures have helped to create. Loan companies need assurances that their chattel and collateral will be protected until fully paid. Manufacturers need a system where people can purchase their products on time. Every industry is mutually exclusive of the other but dependent. One industry should not have control and power over another to tip the scales of balance that make free enterprise and capitalism function they way it was intended.



To say that the collision industry is dependent upon the insurance industry is a stretch. There will always be people who require the talents of skilled labor and businessmen to maintain their purchases regardless of whether it is insured or not. They gamble they will never require the use of insurance. Insurers with higher deductibles and the threat of "you use it you may lose it" strategies have ensured higher profits for themselves in recent years while cost control managing an industry that they have no business manipulating. Customers have a policy in which they live in fear of using for the penalties so they are paying a larger portion of these claims out of pocket. Good for the insurance industry I would say. If an industry didn't exist to service your contracts and policies, those policies would be worthless. Because the govenment allows an industry to sell a policy and invest a portion of it to make sure that when those policies need servicing the funds will be there so that vehicle owners can pay for their losses and not so insurers can pay collision repairers who are not their policy holders and customers.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:17 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
[a few caps for emphasis only]

There are several amateur insurance folks on this board who (as always) are willing to lend a hand at screwing the vehicle owner.


Hey there Enstein you forgot the caps! Rolling Eyes I wouldn't consider myself an amateur, first of all I get paid for it, (don't I lose my amateur status then?)...also I've been at this game longer probably than you've been house broke... Rolling Eyes and if you're not a kid, wish you'd act like a grown up...
Quote:
they can apply the provisions and limitations of an insurance contract that you never signed let alone *saw* - to you.
geeze junior where'd you get that? Are folks buying policys now and never getting copies of them? hmmmmmmm news to me...you have a copy of your policy? have you read it? Check the part under ''how losses are settled'' there honey see what it says...never saw the policy never signed it? well that's a new one...not giving poor emp much credit are ya'? Good job there slick...it's a FIRST PARTY CLAIM...apparently you are a reading comprehension 'amateur' huh... Rolling Eyes
Quote:
AND dude owes you for the loss of use of your Starbucks for the time you were without it.
you've had WAY too much of somethin......
Quote:
Have they been paying you the dollar figure per day of what it costs to put you into a BMW rental? They owe you - whether you rent a BMW or not. If they want you in a KIA they pay the difference.
Dude, you sooooooooooooo have no idea what you are talking about! oh my gosh!
Quote:
Any engineer (or accident reconstructionist will tell you that there can be no assurance whatsoever that even if the vehicle is repaired **exactly** as the manufacturer specifies or recommends - that it will perform the same way the second time around.
Well then we should be totaling them all! Rolling Eyes
Quote:
As to diminished value. This is a third party loss - no contract limitation on someone else's policy or any DOI lackey can make that an irrecoverable loss.
READ it again ...........
Quote:
Do NOT ask or expect any repairer to negotiate on your behalf. They are not licensed to do this. There is a specific license for this service which is required by law in all states.
Need to be an attorney to negotiate now too huh? Better let the car dealers and purchasers know this in fact better let the ENTIRE WORLD in on that one....
Quote:
Dennis Howard can help you find someone competent. No offense to those folks here who "think" they know. I'm not an Attorney - however Attorneys regularly call me to remind them of things they forgot in first year Law School and to point out how they are being tricked by what is "usual and customary" versus what is "reasonable and necessary".
Oh my folks, back up the bs train, the 'advocate' has arrived, I'd know those lines anywhere.... Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes
Quote:
BTW since this is a "tort loss" and has NOTHING to do with anyone's insurance policy - there is not likely anything your DOI will offer but misinformation
Course it is a first party loss...and so darn thankful that a (maybe) body shop owner knows so much more about insurance and policy than the state Dept of Ins... Rolling Eyes
Quote:
Tell him What the balance due will likely be for each element of the loss and make your demand. If you have an attorney still do the documents for the property on your own and insist that he make the demand on your behalf.
Yeah that'll work, (if that is it were a third party claim Rolling Eyes ) Man there is just so much wrong in this post...wait I found something correct....the vehicle we are discussing IS a bmw...

---------------------------------------------------

Ok enough...of my sarcasim, it's so irritating when complete jibberish is posted and total off the mark...


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Lori
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:25 am   Post subject:   

Ok I've done some checking with Washington state....(well I read a washington policy...I have to say your states Dept of Ins website was not much help..sorry)...



anyway....I found this in a standard washington policy...........Please be kind, remembering I didn't write it, and never claimed to be a good typist!



Quote:
In determining the amount necessary to repair damaged property to its pre-loss condtion, the amount to be paid by US:

Willnot exceed the prevailing competititve labor rates charged in the area where the proeprty is to e repaired and the cost of repair or replacement parts and equipment, as reasonably determined by us, and will be based on the cost of repair or replacement parts and equipment which may be new, reconditioned, remanufactured, or used, including but not limited to oem, and non original manu. parts or equipment.
======================

Quote:
APPRAISAL



If we cannot agree with you on the amount of a loss, then we or you may demand an appraisal of the loss. Within 30 days of any demand for an appraisal each party shall appoint a competent and impartial appraier and shall notify the other party of that appriser's identiy. The appraiers will etermine the amount of loss.. If they fail to agree, the disagreement will be submitted to a qualified and impartial umprie chosen by the appraisers. If the two apppraiers are unalbe to agree upon an umprie within 15 days, we or you may request that a judge of court of record, in the county where you rside select an umprie. The appraisers umprie will determine the amount of loss. The amount of loss agreed to by both appraisers or by one appraiser and the umprie, will be binding. You will pay your appraiser's fees, and expenses. We will pay ours. All other expenses will be shared.

===================




I couldn't find any laws specific to washington on the definition of prevailing rate, but found Mississippi (and I'm getting tired)...would imagine that if there is a law on the books in washington it would be close to this...

Quote:
(2) For purposes of this section, the term "prevailing

21 market rate" means the hourly rate on the majority of available

22 repair stalls in the local market area of the insured. The

23 prevailing market rate shall be determined by an annual survey,

24 conducted by the automobile insurers doing business in this state,

25 of the repair shops in the local market area of the insured that

26 comply with the minimum requirements for a Class A collision

27 center recommended by the Collision Industry Conference. The

28 survey shall contain the following information:29 (a) The number of work stalls used for

30 collision-related repairs at the location;

31 (b) The hourly rates for body repair labor, refinish

32 labor, mechanical labor and frame labor;

33 (c) The inside and outside storage rates;

34 (d) The paint and body material rates;

35 (e) The discounts on parts; and

36 (f) The markup on parts.

37 (3) Completed surveys shall be submitted by the automobile

38 insurers to the Attorney General's Office of Consumer Protection

39 on the second Monday in February of each year. After notice and a

40 hearing, the Attorney General is authorized to impose an

41 administrative fine in an amount not to exceed Five Thousand

42 Dollars ($5,000.00) upon any person who files the survey after the

43 deadline provided in this subsection but is not more than thirty

44 (30) days late. After notice and a hearing, the Attorney General

45 is authorized to impose an administrative fine in an amount not to

46 exceed Ten Thousand Dollars ($10,000.00) upon any person who fails

47 to file the survey or files the survey more than thirty (30) days

48 after the deadline provided in this subsection.

49 SECTION 2. This act shall take effect and be in force from

50 and after July 1, 2002.






The MO policy (which is where I am an adjuster) does not use that phrase 'prevailing rates' but does say , "We base that determination on our knowledge of the prices repair facilites charge in the geographic area where the repair is to be done." I'm sure there is something on the books defining this as well for my state...While searching I found other states, that set out a certain number of shops that must be surveyed based on the population size...



Anyway, hope this helped atleast by definition...again, remember don't shot the messenger...I'm just an old broad that found the information for you... Wink





Mike, by the way, you made some very valid points in that last post...for what it's worth...I'm just to tired to comment right now... Wink ( i know i know like you care! Rolling Eyes )


_________________

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Lori
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