What did they do wrong, by filing this suit?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:58 am   Post subject: People should make informed choices.  

People should be allowed to make informed choices in their repair situations. Your personal experiences with clips shouldn't be the sole arbiter of whether this is a sanctioned procedure or determinatin of whether it should be performed at all.



Don't take this personal, I believe you are entitled to your opinion, but you shouldn't be making potential life altering decisions based on procedures you have not performed or had the training to perform.



So, go ahead and make the proverbial leap, if your confident in your opinion and expertise regarding clipping. You make the call, step up to the plate, to the precipice of the edge, you accept the liability, you are the expert, and you tell everyone here and in your profession that you believe that clipping is an acceptible, safe, and quality repair.



I can't make that call, I'll kick your job to the curb, not because it's above my skill level or you wouldn't pay the value of the service for completing a procedure for this complicated of a repair. I'll kick it to the curb because I wouldn't want to be responsible for putting someone's wife, husband, daughter, mother, regional claims supervisor or whomever behind the wheel, and I wouldn't want to even be on the same road knowingly that a Frankencar was operating on for the fear or safety of my family riding in my car. When you force them to accept this type of repair and you find a drp shop that is afraid of upsetting their insurance partner by not doing this job, I give that vehicle owner a free post repair inspection to show them that they weren't made whole and give them the name of a consumer bad faith attorney.



But then that's just my opinion.



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:19 am   Post subject:   

I never said clipping was always an acceptable option. But I still see no indication of the following:



Quote:
No manufacturer recommends this procedure or will condone it.
From the links you provided, it appears that this is incorrect.



Quote:
Courts do not consider insurers experts at auto repairs.




Quote:
you should consult collision repair shops in your area to find one who vehemently opposes this type of repair to assist you.




Quote:
Today's unibody construction requires specific repair procedures recommended by your vehicle's manufacturer. Don't believe any person or insurer that states that this type of repair is industry acceptible or insurer approved.




Quote:
The only reason any insurer would clip a car, would be because they found it cost effective regardless of your future safety.
Bold statement with nothing to back it up. I could say that a repair shops will always want to use OEM parts, not because they are better but rather only because the mark up is higher so they make more "free" profits. But I don't because I have nothing to back it up and it's a generalization.



Quote:
Only original parts from your manufacturer should be used to make a structural repair to your vehicle according to their recommendations for installation.




What I asked in my initial post is some documentation showing these your statements to be correct. That was all. You can certainly have your opinion on something (and I don't disagree completely) but I thought your post went a little further then just an expression of opinion (actually it did)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:24 am   Post subject: Is this a deposition or a dialogue?  

I don't have the time or inclination to chase additional corroborating evidence that this is not an acceptible repair. My purpose isn't to debates the merits of clipping with you but to warn vehicle owners on how to channel the liability back to the insurer and get what an actual cash value policy promises. The point is two halves don't make a vehicle whole or the owner.



There is a toyota study, that I can't find at the moment, that did tests on the use of salvaged parts to clip and section. It was determined that the size of the holes required to separate the donor car's parts would create a situation that would lead to future failure of the part to act as the engineer designed it to function in the event of a crash, because of the heat generated by welding the components back together again.



Frame rails are designed with crush zones intimate to the timing mechanisms of the air bag deployment to ensure occupant safety. This factor alone should be enough to disqualify sectioning as a safe and acceptible procedures.



The limited funds that insurers estimate to peform clipping procedures could contribute to the negligence and shortcuts that techicians take when clipping some vehicles to comply with insurer mandated cycle times or techs, supervisors, forement that are just plain lazy and take shortcuts to repairs. Look at the corrosion from the welding procedures on some of the vehicles that were repaired and later totaled when poor repairs were discovered during a post repair inspection by a diminished value inspector.



http://www.csiofnc.com/poor_unsafe_repairs.aspx Note, some of these vehicle may be total losses reconstructed by rebuilders. However the techniques they use are the same methods too many licensed shops practice.



A picture speaks a thousand words they say. Go ahead take that step and tell people that these repairs are safe. The sad fact is that these types of repairs and the quality seems to be industry standard and performed at direct repair shops as well as non drp shops.



Oh and by the way, there is actually a higher profit margin on imitation parts. They carry as much as a 35 to 40 percent discount.



400 dollar oem fender with a 25% discount costs the shop 300.00

325 dollar a/m fender for same car with a 35% discount costs shop 211.00

The shop would make 14 dollars more profit using the a/m fender. That is unless you count the time prepping and making it fit. Then you lose that profit.



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:02 pm   Post subject:   

I can't wait to get back and fully read this entire thread...not enough time this morning...just want to throw a couple of things in here real quick....first I agree in part re:icar....first can't tell you what torture those classes are Rolling EyesLaughing







Secondly, personally I skimmed right over the op's 'clip' comment because (maybe unfortunately and wrongfully) I didn't think he knew the correct terminolgy and was using slang he didn't understand....and figured in truth the adjuster has sourced a used (bolt on) front end...which if we could see the estimate I'd bet is the case, not a 'true' clip....there is a huge difference between buying and replacing a used front end (again bolt on) and a true clip...if a used front clip is purchased it still must be totally disassembled and part by part painted and put on the car, it is just cheaper (from a yard) to buy an entire front end, than 'i need two fenders, a hood, loaded header, cooling, hood etc)...they will sell you the entire full front for several hundred less than part by part...(also as a side note many adjusters mistakenly take that front clip time of say 6 hours and think that is it! it's not! much much more time is to be added the 6 hours will tell you that is to r&r as an assy which of course cannot be done)....ok, i'll be back later, when I can read the entire thing as well as your links Mike....great thread guys.



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:42 am   Post subject: Great non biased article on pros and cons of clipping link  

Full body sectioning or 'CLIPPING'

By Alfred Thomas



OEMs don't agree with the practice, but clips are a way of life for many techs. Learn why full disclosure is vital if you head down this path.





Taken from the above linked article



Quote:
Clipping a vehicle, or full body sectioning, as it is sometimes called, is a controversial method of repairing a severely damaged vehicle. Whether or not this repair procedure should be undertaken depends on whom you talk to. Some believe that it could achieve better results than attempting to repair the vehicle by replacing multiple parts, while others believe it is a risky and difficult process, one to be avoided.




Quote:
And during last month's NACE show, ABRN discussed clipping with representatives from General Motors. GM does not approve of the practice and echoed Ford's position on warranties. Clipping voids GM's new vehicle limited warranty, any variety of the GM Protection Plan, as well as GM's new vehicle service part and corrosion warranties for each part in the clip, the automaker states.



While other manufacturers also have statements against sectioning, some do not address the procedure.






Read the entire article at this link http://license.icopyright.net/user/viewFreeUse.act?fuid=NzY4NTkz


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:58 am   Post subject:   

Clipping and sectioning are different operations, we are also getting into a nomenclature problem here....what one calls a clip is actually a bolt on front end as I stated previously...Most of the larger carriers will not do an actual 'clip' any longer for good reason...sectioning...no problem, as you said Mike a pillar as an example....is a good repair often times...each repair must stand on it's own merit, no two cars or situations are the same...



I'm gonna take issue with you Mike on a couple of points..



Quote:
Therefore the collision industry has allowed itself to become manipulated to support insurers by direct repair businesses giving deep concessions and discounts back to insurers in exchange for referral business.
The DRP program that I am part of requests ZERO from the shops, re:discounts, (parts or labor) rental, NOTHING other than getting the car done right and in a TIMELY fashion...we expect ours to get in and out quickly and a high quality repair, that yes I routinely inspect upon completion...PERIOD that's it...in exchange (you are correct) for referring to this shop...however there is a stingent set of rules/qualifications that a shop must meet to get on the program, certain equipment, insurance coverage etc...so to correct you ALL carriers don't ask for 'kick backs' (my words not yours)....



Also re: the data bases....I'll give you that the carriers are more than likely their biggests clients, but I will argue that when written correctly on all three (that I know how to write on) audatex, ccc and mitchell, if they are written correctly based on the programs (included and not included opperations) they come out the same within a tick or two...and have shown this to shops time and time again...one works from the inside out the other outside in...some actually required the estimator to check included operations and add those that are not (the stinkin' nerve! Rolling EyesLaughing ).....I see this on the body shop side as well as the adjuster side....I've personally shown shop managers/owners where they are screwing themselves daily because they don't know how to use their own system....


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:45 pm   Post subject: Concessions and more rambling thoughts.  

Lori,



You and others here, myself and my industry may have different opinions on what a concession is.



For example not charging for towing , storage, administrative charges, all the r&i's for disassembly for purpose of inspection and building a repair plan, hazardous fees for removal of parts, pre-pulls for accessing damage, tow assistance fees for taking time from other work to assist towing companies unload immobile vehicles, and I could go on, are all examples of things I charge for and get paid for that many insurers consider work to be performed for no charge when a vehicle totals or requires certain procedures to gain access.



Direct repairs shops may absorb all these fees which prompts insurers to tell collision owners that are not affiliated or drp shops , we do not pay for that, or no one else charges for that, the state says you can not bill for that. Many drp shops can not bill for additional materials or deviate from the refinish hours time a set fee for materials even though it has no valid basis.



Shops may be required to work on certain insured's vehicles and set aside your non prefered customer where they suffer additional rental expenses or inconveniences. Not being able to adjust for the cost of doing business labor rates until state farm takes a survey that everyone else conveniently uses, as well as not raising rates because your partners simply says no are also concessions.



These and more, are all forms of concessions that are examples of ways insurers withhold payment for actual services performed. I am sorry that the shop down the street has to pay Progressive (or any insurer for that matter) for rental expenses incurred because the job was delayed for any reason. Progressive actually has a legal department that sues shops for rental expenses they interpret to be the shop's fault. Many shops for fear of being bullied, comply instead fo telling Progressive attorneys to go pound salt. Imagine being sued by someone you have no contract with and have not caused any monetary damage to by any negligence on the shop's part.



This is the reason, I inform all my customers to conduct their communication in writing or email with their adjuster so that they can contact their agent to check their policy to see why they are paying more than their deductible. Written communication is complying with a policy, and keeping the honest people honest.



You know, yesterday I couldn't get into this website, and I actually thought that my ip address had been blocked. And I thought, this is certainly an easy way to silence opinion. I am glad that this turned out not to be so. I appreciate your site's openiness to constructive dialogue giving the collision side an opportunity to share it's opinions and experiences with claims handling and collision repairs.



I ususally state a disclaimer when I give advice on any forum that I am not an attorney nor am I licensed to consult as there is no license required. I do emphasis that most is my opinion based on my experiences and studies of thirty years and that one should never act on my advice without first consulting an attorney or dispute a claim without first reading a policy.



I believe the insurance claims handling aspect and the collision repair industry should have a system of checks and balances. We do have the unfair claims practices act but that has no real teeth for punitive damages for an offending party. Too bad there isn't an ombudsman type of department in every state made up of industry leaders from both the insurers and collision owners. Then there might be a form of resolution beneficial to the consumer as a means of not having to hire an attorney. As I stated before, most departments of insurance have allowed some insurers to remove the appraisal clause. It was probably demonstrated that most policy holders never used it and weren't made aware that it was a form of resolution. Too bad the only way to solve these issues are by attorneys and arbitration at the ultimate expense to consumers.



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:19 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
You and others here, myself and my industry may have different opinions on what a concession is.
I'm sure you're right Mike, I don't feel that the DRP program I work for asks for any concessions other than our vehicles move thru the process as quickly as possible and a quality repair be completed...I routinely pay 'my' shops for tear down on a vehicle that is deemed a total loss...I have NEVER requested they eat a tow bill EVER. Course we know every repair is as different as the owner....I pay preliminary pulls when warranted, (ie replacing a 1/4 rear body panel etc)....
Quote:
administrative charges
No idea what you mean by this but have never paid it...and doubt I would...honestly in 22 years never been asked it other than by a few tow companies, never a body shop.
Quote:
tow assistance fees
Same here the tow companies (that I deal with anyway) do their own job and don't ask a shop tech to do it for them, nor should they.
Quote:
Many drp shops can not bill for additional materials or deviate from the refinish hours time a set fee for materials even though it has no valid basis.
This is something that I personally got changed in my own area, and it was no easy feat....but I did my homework and had the proof to back up what I needed...I agree all communication is better in writing, don't know what you mean by paying more than deduct unless you are referring to betterment...or maybe F.K.'s shop...There is a disclaimer on this site if you want I can copy it here for you not sure if that was your point on that paragraph, if so let me know and I'll direct you to it or copy/paste here. RE: the rental issue,
Quote:
Progressive actually has a legal department that sues shops for rental expenses they interpret to be the shop's fault
. Sorry Mike, I'm from the same state you are from and brother you're gonna have to 'show me' that one...That a company as large as Progressive has a legal dept who's purpose is to sue body shops for rental expenses as you've laid out.... I've not heard of this and would love to see the cases on it-and proof that is their job... Confused ....quote]You know, yesterday I couldn't get into this website, and I actually thought that my ip address had been blocked[/quote] No way Mike, not the way you conduct yourself.
Quote:
We do have the unfair claims practices act but that has no real teeth for punitive damages for an offending party.
That's not correct Mike, unfair claims awards are almost totally punitive in nature, the vast majority of the monetary awards are not actual but punititve.
Quote:
As I stated before, most departments of insurance have allowed some insurers to remove the appraisal clause.
All I can say about that other than I've never heard it, is that both the company I have my vehicles insured with and the company I work for both still have it.
Quote:
Too bad there isn't an ombudsman type of department in every state made up of industry leaders from both the insurers and collision owners
I agree with you on this one!
Quote:
Then there might be a form of resolution beneficial to the consumer as a means of not having to hire an attorney.
Do you not see any problem at all on the collision industry in this problem Mike?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:24 pm   Post subject: on the subject of Progressive insurance  

Here is one link at the extent Progressive exerts it's legal prowess



http://www.individual.com/story.php?story=77622345



Here is a commentary on Progressive's rental car practice....still looking for the actual article on the lawsuit



http://www.bodyshopsolutions.com/WordPress/?p=114



You may not have paid anyone for administrative charges, but I'll bet your company has paid more than likely paid me if you are one of the top five insurers in Missouri. My lline item for administrative charges are for taking time for preparing an estimate, being on the phone, use of my funds to pay for pre-existing storage and tow fees. I am sure that they were not called administrative fees in the insurer's paper work and there is a line item that it is lumped under, but none the less they are my administrative fees.





Not sure what you mean by disclaimer on the site and the reference to paint and materials, can you point that out to me?



Link deactivated as per forum rules



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:02 pm   Post subject: Two more sources for not recommending vehicle clipping  

Quote:
GM Clipping Statement

GM Does Not Approve of Clipping to Repair Collision Damage

DETROIT – General Motors does not approve the use of clipping to repair collision damage to vehicles. In the collision repair industry, clipping refers to cutting two damaged vehicles through the windshield pillars, the rocker panels, and across the floor pan and joining the undamaged portions from these vehicles to make the repair. The use of clipping voids GM's New Vehicle Limited Warranty (and any variety of the GM Protection Plan), as well as GM's new vehicle service part and corrosion warranties for each part in the clip.



GM does not sanction clipping repair because it cuts across the major load-bearing paths of a vehicle and can reduce the structural integrity of the repaired vehicle. This is critical because of the increase in the use of Advance High Strength Steel (AHSS). Improper repairs can lead to vehicle performance issues related to noise, vibration and handling problems.



GM recommends replacing body components at factory seams. When applicable, GM will either provide a specific service part for collision repair frames, or repair information on how to create specific parts from a complete service assembly. Frame repair procedures for select GM vehicles are available at http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/gmgoodqwrenchjsp/gmspo/repair.jsp. These parts and procedures provide a practical and cost effective alternative to clipping.



GM provides vehicle specific collision repair procedures which are developed to be in a location and fashion that – particularly when used with genuine GM parts – will yield panel strength comparable to the original panel strength.



Replacing damaged parts of a vehicle designed to crush in a collision may reduce occupant protection in a future collision. GM has not tested or validated a “clipped vehicle” repair, therefore, GM cannot endorse this type of repair or confirm the crash performance during a subsequent collision.



GM recommends the use of genuine GM parts in repairs to help restore the vehicle to its pre-crash condition.




A posted response asking an I-car spokesperson to elaborate on clipping.



Quote:
Mark,

I-CAR offers one program that covers full-body clipping (SPS02). Jeff Poole's statement

accurately reflects the I-CAR position on this issue. I-CAR does not recommend clipping,

nor do we recommend against it. In the event that the decision is made by the collision

repair professional to employ clipping as the mode of repair, SPS 02 will help to point out

how to perform the repair and what should be considered when making the decision and

performing the repair.

I-CAR does not establish standards for collision repair. I-CAR is a training organization

that does not certify technicians, facilities or repairs. When performing any repair, I-CAR

defers to the OEM policies and procedures from that repair.

I hope this helps.

All the best in the New Year,

Rick


http://www.prodiscussions.com/cgi-bin/pro_discussions.pl?read=94199 1/18/2007



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:17 pm   Post subject:   

Nada or KBB are both great places to look. From my experience, depending on mileage your Pacifica may indeed get fixed. I would ask for another adjuster to come look at it and say he didnt get the full damage listed; or atleast call them and tell them it will not even run after the accident. You have no way of knowing wherein lies the problem since the hood is inoperable.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:48 pm   Post subject:   

First, hello everyone again..excuse my absence but I fell

'victim' to the dreaded influenza 'h' and have been in the hospital/then bed all week. yesterday was the first day up...so gonna make this short and hopefully back to myself by saturday or so..



mike

Quote:
Not sure what you mean by disclaimer on the site and the reference to paint and materials, can you point that out to me?




I was responding to these statement of yours..
Quote:
I ususally state a disclaimer when I give advice on any forum that I am not an attorney nor am I licensed to consult as there is no license required
Quote:
Many drp shops can not bill for additional materials or deviate from the refinish hours time a set fee for materials even though it has no valid basis.
Sorry but I don't have the strength right now (but will) to read your links, I find it hard to belive that Progressive has a legal dept that is dedicated to sueing shops for rental bills as you seem to have stated....After I have had an opportunity to review all the information you have provided I'll get back to this thread
Quote:
....Progressive actually has a legal department that sues shops for rental expenses they interpret to be the shop's fault


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:40 pm   Post subject:   

Mike, I just got time to get back to checking your links here...this is funny

Quote:
Here is one link at the extent Progressive exerts it's legal prowess

http://www.individual.com/story.php?story=77622345
On this one you provided
Quote:
Progressive sued Lowe in federal court in August of 2007, charging "trademark infringement, unfair competition, deceptive trade practices and trademark dilution."



At the core of the case is the insurance company's allegation that Lowe is illegally using the "Progressive" logo to lure customers to his business and away from its "network" contractors.
Now how in the world does that show as you assert
Quote:
that the extent Progressive exerts it's legal prowess
Seriously! What did they do wrong, (by filing this suit)? Bet had it been on the other foot the shop would've filed as well (rather than a counter suit)...did you notice the outcome by the way?

This one........
Quote:
Here is a commentary on Progressive's rental car practice....still looking for the actual article on the lawsuit

http://www.bodyshopsolutions.com/WordPress/?p=114
as you say is a ''commentary'' and means absolutely Nothing!, anyone can have a commentary, and there is no way in the world for us to verify and FACTS.... you still haven't proved your point that Progressive has some legal team dedicated to sueing shops for unreasonable rental bills as you ascert as I suspected!
Quote:
Progressive actually has a legal department that sues shops for rental expenses they interpret to be the shop's fault.
Seriously Mike, throwing out statements like this without ANY facts to support them, is not furthering your cause....I'm not trying to be ugly, it's just that anyone can 'say' anything, but unless you have the FACTS to back them up what is the point? And this link, real nice Mike, here is a direct quote from it....
Quote:
My advice has more “teeth,” and, frankly, will be more enjoyable. When someone calls trying to collect rental money it's very simple. Tell the person on the other end of the phone to “Go F*** yourself.” and hang up.
That's real adult, and frankly I'm surprised that you would want to align yourself and link something so childish and frankly stupid...you're better than that! And here's alittle more from the author that you sourced,
Quote:
Yes, it may be crude and impolitic, but I believe it will have more of an effect than trying to be professional and diplomatic. Despite what many people think, this type of language or response can be very effective.
In what world? Junior High maybe? Rolling Eyes
Quote:
So here's what you do when Progressive's pit bulls start nipping at your heals. Train your receptionists and anyone else who will be in a position to take a call from Progressive's collectors. I know some of you are timid. Some of you are good Christians and would never use the foul language that I am suggesting you use. If you or your employees are reluctant to use such language to talk to the scum of the insurance industry, start watching a lot of “R” rated movies and listening to Rap music. You will become desensitized to bad language. Keep telling yourselves that sometimes you have to get dirty when cleaning the sewer. The Good Lord will forgive your bad language because it will be for a good cause.
You bet I'm getting my christian living advise from this joker! I can't resist, this gets better and better
Quote:
After telling Progressive's bullies to go “F*** Yourself,” hang up and then dial *67 to return the call. Many collection agencies block their caller ID so this may not work. But if, as Erica Eversman has suggested, the call comes from Progressive's attorneys, they will probably answer the phone. If they do, ask to speak to the person who is handling Progressive's rental bill collections. When they pick up the phone, introduce yourself. Tell them your name and the name of your shop. Then tell them that you just wanted to make certain they heard you before you hung up the phone, and in case they didn't “Go F*** Yourself.”
WOW! That's adult!
Quote:
I also encourage you to cause Progressive to harass you.
That's brilliant example to source and spokesmen for your industry Mike...additionally on this link you supplied are the following:
Quote:
We all need to quit trying to be the nice guy and just tell these untrained halfwits just what it's going to cost. If they can't handle it, then they can just go F*** themselves.
Quote:
I've taken a part time job working at an independent body shop close to my home writing estimates and supplements and harassing insurance companies
Even have links to the ever so ingenius tow and parts helper software...that's another topic, but you know where I'm going...Sorry Mike, now I'm disappointed that you thought/felt this was a fair representation of your industry...pity.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:15 am   Post subject: If anyone is working for the company in question.....  

My sympathy for you. They have even less loyalty or compassion to their employees as they have to their policyholders and even less for third party claimants. If you really want to know what low level appraisers have to say about the companies they work for, check out double u double u double u . jobvent.com. Plug in the company you work for.



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:33 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
I would say that it's not the replacement of the clip that is inheretnly bad, it's what work is involved in adding it to the vehicle. In many cases I've read that it's bolted on. But in other cases it appears that it's welded. I'm betting everyone would agree that excessive or incorrect welds could lead to problems.




This is a quote from some one who is obviously a insurance appraiser. Argueing about a procedure that he doesn't even understand. Anyone who's job is to estimate repair damages on a vehicle should know the difference between a "clip" and bolt on sheetmetal.

A perfect example of some one writing estimates for a insurance company that does not have a clue how to repair a vehicle properly. This is why when you go to a body shop to get a estimate it will be alot more than the insurance estimate. The shop is the one who knows what they are looking at and what is required to fix it. Not the appraiser who isn't even sure what a "clip" is.

Insurers do try to get away with clipping. I had a 1 year old Jetta a few years ago that Progressive wanted to clip because it was going to be totaled. I just laughed and told them I don't think so. I wonder how the customer would feel knowing that in order for the company to save themselves money they want to cut the customers car in half and weld another half of a car from a junkyard on. Good thing almost every shop out there refuses to do clip's.
Bodybyfischer
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