Well I'm not, this isn't double jeopardy Mike.

Message Author
ampm-bookmark
delicious-small Add to delicious
yahoomyweb-small Add to YahooMyWeb
blinklist-small Add to BlinkList
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 4:41 pm   Post subject:   

Hi,

You have both been very helpful to me! I can appreciate both perspectives. I am waiting to hear back from the insurance co. as I type.

Lori-on diminished value-isn't there now a "tick" mark against the vehicle since it sustained 12k in damage? I think the body shop did the best they could but there are things that are off, for example, the gaps between the panels are larger on one side than the other etc. If the vehicle wasn't 8 months old at the time, I wouldn't even think about it, but since it was custom built and still so new...


_________________
Register Now to have your Insurance queries solved.
plp
Guest







PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:18 pm   Post subject: You are missing my point  

Quote:
Well I'm not, this isn't double jeopardy Mike...In fact it is against every states fair claims practice to combine the two (injury and physcial damage)....I'm not saying that a person cannot sue for all at the same time, I am saying it is not required....




I am not saying an insurer can not settle on property damage or force the damaged party to settle the personal injury before they will pay for the property damage. I am aware of all the unfair claims practices acts and how often they are abused.



I am saying according to more than one attorney's commentary on the matter, that you can not sue for property damage today to collect the dificiency in what the insurer paid, or for DV, or loss of use, and to expect to be able to sue the negligent party at a later date for the personal injury. In some states you might. Unless Missouri has recently changed that ruling, I believe you are mistaken.



You have attorneys in your company, simply ask them and report the truth. I just did and my local attorney confimed my assertion.


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 11:52 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
Lori-on diminished value-isn't there now a "tick" mark against the vehicle since it sustained 12k in damage?
Not sure what you mean by that...some states, (not ours) like Iowa (i think) if a vehicle has damage that is 50% or more of the ACV this must be disclosed to prospective buyers....is that what you mean by 'tick'? I've not heard the term.
Quote:
I think the body shop did the best they could but there are things that are off, for example, the gaps between the panels are larger on one side than the other etc.
First, I'd have that car right back to the shop and have anything and everything fixed/adjusted whatever needs to happen to my satisfaction....
Quote:
If the vehicle wasn't 8 months old at the time, I wouldn't even think about it,
I totally understand and were I in your position I would definately proceed with a diminished value claim (the way I told you though, about collecting proof of same, rather than the way your were Wink )
Quote:
but since it was custom built and still so new...
???? Confused ''Custom built''? What do you mean by that?



Have you heard anymore out of the adjuster ??



Quote:
I am saying according to more than one attorney's commentary on the matter, that you can not sue for property damage today to collect the dificiency in what the insurer paid, or for DV, or loss of use, and to expect to be able to sue the negligent party at a later date for the personal injury.
again wrong...



Quote:
You have attorneys in your company, simply ask them and report the truth. I just did and my local attorney confimed my assertion.
Is this the same one that said you can't collect med pay and a bi settlement in MO?



Look, what I'm saying is more 'liberal' or claimant bent than what you are saying...can't win with you....Most people would (if they can't reach an agreement) combine both, but it is not REQUIRED....I can sue you for the damage you caused to my vehicle...then a year and a half from now sue you for the injury....


_________________

"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr.
Lori
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

Lori
Forum Expert

Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8080

Location: Missouri
287.93 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:08 pm   Post subject: You are incorrect.  

You can not sue two different times for the same negligent act in Missouri.



Quote:
Is this the same one that said you can't collect med pay and a bi settlement in MO?




Never made the above statement, I know in fact that you can double dip and collect med pay and sue for bodily injury, I am in the very process of doing the same. Please quote my post. If I alluded to that , and I don't believe I did, that statement would be wrong.





Quote:
I think the body shop did the best they could but there are things that are off, for example, the gaps between the panels are larger on one side than the other etc.




good time to find out how well that Insurance guarantee on their shop works if you were referred to them. If not have a post repair inspection by a quality shop to see if all the repairs restored you to pre-loss condion. Those remaing flaws and defects are the very factors that drive the value down of previously wrecked and repaired vehicles. Not a perception, you can acctually see remaing flaws.



I thought Lori, said vehicles can be restored flawlessly.



If the shop did the repairs with flaws and obvious defects remaing to the non repair expert's eyes, imagine how a car dealer will point those out when you attempt to trade it. The shop could be responsible for some diminishment of value as well.


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:12 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Please quote my post. If I alluded to that , and I don't believe I did, that statement would be wrong.
Sorry Mike, I didn't remember it correctly...It was the brillant legal mind that told you that you can use medpay to pay your own employees wages... ShockedRolling Eyes here's the post per your request...
Quote:
My attorney has informed me that he carries 200,000 in med pay so that if he can not work, he can pay his staff and cover medical treatments so as to not use his health and accident coverage who might place a lein on a personal injury settlement subrogated against the other insurer.
Quote:
good time to find out how well that Insurance guarantee on their shop works if you were referred to them.
I absolutely agree! If you were referred to a DRP shop, I think you should START with your adjuster they should know there is a repair satisfaction issue....if it's a DRP then they should have given you a warranty when you picked up your vehicle( or all I know of do)....you have a right to have that vehicle repaired back to prior loss condition...and I'd not settle for less (IMO)
Quote:
Not a perception, you can acctually see remaing flaws.
Of a poor repair!! Which of course diminishes value, duh...a bad paint job on a house does too...but the shop owes this one! NOT the carrier...
Quote:
If the shop did the repairs with flaws and obvious defects remaing to the non repair expert's eyes, imagine how a car dealer will point those out when you attempt to trade it. The shop could be responsible for some diminishment of value as well.
WOW! Everyone back away from your screen...a statement by Mike I actually agree with! Wink


_________________

"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr.
Lori
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

Lori
Forum Expert

Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8080

Location: Missouri
287.93 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 5:18 pm   Post subject:   

Plp, I hope you get your vehicle issues taken care of and resolved. I know how frustrating it is for vehicle owners to be in your condition. The insurer may or may not refer you to their preferred vendor in exchange for concessions. This tactic was used by the mafia very successfully and it seems to work well for insurers. Hopefully you were able to pick the shop that repaired your vehicle yourself and they will want to correct those flaws and defects that could put yourself or others in harms way and contribute to lowering the vehices value. Just think though, those are just the flaws that you can see from the outside, who knows what may be covered up by shortcutted repairs that you can not see. I sincerely hope this is not the case and your shop is reputable and was not coerced into taking those shortcuts to help save the insurer money.



If it was the insurer preferred shop or the insurer interfered by writing an estimate of their own requiring the shop to perform repairs they knew may not be factory recommended, you will encounter the shop and insurer placing you in the middle and sending you back and forth to each other rather than resolve your issues. You see when an insurer promises to guarantee your repair, what they mean to say is, we'll lean on that shop to make it right or they will be faced with the possibility of being removed from their programs. Not likely. What happens a lot sadly, is that the adjuster may call the shop and ask what the problem is and the shop will say it's the loose nut behind the wheel and we simply can't please them.



In frustration many people notify the local paper, or the local news affiliate and to save face the shop will blame the insurer, and vice versa. The car will often times be bought back by the shop to remain on the program or bought back by the insurer and sold at auction for some other unsuspecting person to have problems with.



You always have the option and are entitled to be compensated for all your losses including the loss of value your vehicle suffers. How much it suffers a loss will be dependent on the quality of the repair, the willingness of an insurer to repair it with original quality parts when appropriate as in the case of vehicles still under warranty. Were you aware that if the insurer or shop places a part not made by your manufacturer such as a radiator or condenser, the dealer most likely will attribute any failure in the system to the insurer mandated part, thus ruining your warranty.



Let's hope that you may never have issues like this again, but you will have a better knowledge of what to demand and expect if faced again with another accidental loss in the future.



_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 6:35 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Were you aware that if the insurer or shop places a part not made by your manufacturer such as a radiator or condenser, the dealer most likely will attribute any failure in the system to the insurer mandated part, thus ruining your warranty.
Gee, why does this statement not surprise me one bit. Another naysayer comment from Mike. No way to back up the statement, just meant to scare people away from aftermarket parts with no substance to back it up.



Here is one that I'm sure your familiar with, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.



The TRUTH is, the manufacture would need to prove that the aftermarket part caused the loss. How many people use aftermarket oil filters? How about gas that is not recommended by the manufacture? Why don't we hear about manufactures not honoring warranties because of these items? Huh, because it does not happen with any frequency.



Also, many carriers use aftermarket fender, deck lids, etc. People might not realize that this are not structural items on a vehicle. They are actually _designed_ to crumple and absorb the force of an impact.



Of course, body shops make far less money from aftermarket parts themselves as they are simply less expensive. Body shops mark up parts about 20% for.... picking up the phone and calling the parts store. Good deal, huh. Not only do they make less money on aftermarket parts but aftermarket parts help keep the cost of OEM parts WAY down! Again, less pure profit for the body shops. But also it saves anyone money who buys an OEM part. Once aftermarket parts started to be used, the prices dropped on my OEM parts by 300%!



So when someone comes along and warns that an aftermarket part might void your warranty, simply ask them to show some proof of this. Also ask them if they stand to loose money from people using aftermarket parts. if so, per their own admission, perhaps you should not heed their advice.



Oh, how abotu something to back up my claim? Now there is a novel idea some people don't know about:



http://www.iihs.org/laws/testimony/pdf/testimony_slo_032100.pdf

"A car's cosmetic repair parts (often called crash parts) include fenders, door skins, bumper covers, and the like. In the continuing debate about whether such parts from aftermarket suppliers are as good as cosmetic parts from original-equipment manufacturers, the issue of safety keeps cropping up. Claims are made that using cosmetic crash parts from sources other than original-equipment manufacturers could compromise safety. But the fact is, the source of the parts is irrelevant to safety

because the parts themselves, except possibly the hood, serve no safety or structural function. They merely cover a car like a skin.'
tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:18 pm   Post subject: Checkmate  

T are you one of those guys that get bonuses for the more aftermarket parts you push and write on peoples cars? Sure sounds like it, or are you on the board of capa or are you one of those people swayed by the notions of Jack Gillis who goes around to state legislaters trying to hawk these parts off as equal?



T does not repair cars, he pays for, I mean indemnifies for losses. Most people are sharp enough to know that Taiwan knockoff parts arent even close to original parts quality. So how can a person that only pays for them have a clue as to the quality and fit. Those hoods are designed to crumple all right, but crumple in a certain fashion that works with the air bag timing mechanism.



Those aftermarket parts like like oil filters, air filters, water pumps etc often exceed manufacturer warranties, but aftermarket collision damage parts do not even come close.



Toyota says and here is your proof T



Quote:
Warranties: Toyota vehicle factory warranties transfer when repairs are completed with new Toyota Genuine Parts. The use of used salvage and/or imitation/counterfeit parts is not covered by the Toyota transferable limited warranty on such parts and all adjoining parts and systems which are caused to fall or trust by those parts.



Used Salvage: Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc., is an environmentally-conscious corporate citizen. We understand the merits of recycling and promote them. Additionally, we are concerned about our customers and maintaining Toyota vehicle image, value, functional and safety systems, and transferable factory warranties. Since Toyota does not warrant used salvage parts, we want to make sure customers are aware of the consequences of having used salvage parts installed on their vehicles. At this time, we believe there are no systems or processes in place to regulate the quality of used salvage parts in market. Therefore, we are concerned about improper use of used salvage parts, i.e., wrong application as well as the use of damage materials.



Supplemental Restraint Systems (SRS): Due to the critical nature of the supplemental Restraint Systems, also known as air bags, Toyota does not support the use of any used salvage or limitation parts for repair. Only new Toyota Genuine Parts should be used in repairs.




I am sure I could find more examples



I certainly hope that if you own a rolex and someone steals it, that they don't try to replace it with a taiwan knockoff. It serves the function of the original doesn't it?


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 7:48 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
T are you one of those guys that get bonuses for the more aftermarket parts you push and write on peoples cars?
"One of those guys"? Typical response from you. No one makes any "bonus" off putting AM parts on a vehicle. This is just another one of your implied lies. If you really want to know, the company I work for does not use any AM parts. Nor do I like that they need to be used. So I guess that discounts the rest of your rambling on this subject.

Quote:
So how can a person that only pays for them have a clue as to the quality and fit.
I don't have to bolt them on a vehicle to know what they are like. I've looked at them, touched them, compared them, read the reports on them, and educated myself on their use. Somehow I think that makes me informed. But I guess I can't know anything unless I turn a few bolts.



Toyota can _write_ whatever they want... but truth is, they don't void the warranty on their vehicle unless it can be shown that the AM part lead to a compromise. Again, I refer you to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Read it. I'll quote part of it here, "One of the most important provisions of the Act prohibits a warrantor from disclaiming or modifying any implied warranty whenever any written warranty is given or service contract entered into." I'll also quote someone who has read the Act, "This means that, under the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975, an automotive dealership/carmaker cannot void your warranty because your vehicle has been modified with aftermarket parts. They (the manufacturers) have to prove that the failure was the direct result of the installed aftermarket part."



Parking garage owners post signs stating that they are not liable for damage to vehicle. But if they can be shown to be negligent, they _are_ held legally liable. Again, anything can be claimed or written down but it's another thing to hold any legal muster.



I pointed out all of this information prior to your last response. Perhaps you should do some research before replying next time. You seem to be running a pattern of this.
tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 8:56 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Toyota can _write_ whatever they want... but truth is, they don't void the warranty on their vehicle unless it can be shown that the AM part lead to a compromise. Again, I refer you to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Read it. I'll quote part of it here, "One of the most important provisions of the Act prohibits a warrantor from disclaiming or modifying any implied warranty whenever any written warranty is given or service contract entered into." I'll also quote someone who has read the Act, "This means that, under the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975, an automotive dealership/carmaker cannot void your warranty because your vehicle has been modified with aftermarket parts. They (the manufacturers) have to prove that the failure was the direct result of the installed aftermarket part."




So you would rather put crapa parts on sorry, capa a/m parts and force the claimant and insured to litigate against the manufacturer of their car to maintain the warranty. Good job T.





You and lori work for insurers that are an exception to the rule, thats great. But a/m is still junk. Why do you look at aftermarket parts fit when you do not have to install them? What makes you an expert at fit?


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 9:51 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
So you would rather put crapa parts on sorry, capa a/m parts and force the claimant and insured to litigate against the manufacturer of their car to maintain the warranty.
If it ever happened that the vehicle manufacture was in violation of the law, yes. The insurance company should be responsible for someone else's violation of the law?

Quote:
What makes you an expert at fit?
Mainly when the body shop tells me or an appraiser has told me that that a certain part probably won't fit or does not fit. I understand that body shops don't like AM parts partly because some of them don't fit. It also cost them time when this happens (but if I understand correctly, they get paid for this time). But what else will keep OEM part prices reasonable? As time goes on fewer BS's complaint about AM parts as they realize they are here to stay. People want to complain about AM parts but then they turn around and shop for the lowest price insurance. So which do they want. You don't want to admit this but they won't have both.
tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 11:21 pm   Post subject: Alternate parts  

I was once told by an adjuster from the geco company that he was bonused for the use of alternate parts. Other companies adjusters tell me that writing for alternate parts is part of a grading system that affects their raises. It is my understanding that if an aftermarket condenser or radiator has a different number of coils in it it is not of like kind and quality. The aftermarket radiators that I have seen come with a large warning label on them that says they are not warrantied unless the system is flushed which usually makes them not cost effective. Mike, my shop works on mostly high end cars, and they don't make aftermarket parts for them. Do you think that greater dv factors into that? I have had to help some customers who relented and said they would give them a try. I have had the company tell me that the rejection rates are as low as 1% just to get them here and find something wrong with them. Tcope, I think I understand why you don't respect the people who do this work. Let me tell you that their is no shortage of people who do.


_________________
Register Now to have your Insurance queries solved.
Cascade Dave
Guest







PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 11:50 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
I was once told by an adjuster from the geco company that he was bonused for the use of alternate parts. Other companies adjusters tell me that writing for alternate parts is part of a grading system that affects their raises.
I think this is out of context. If it's the policy of an insurance company to use AM parts, one is available and it's not used, then the appraiser may need to explain why it was not used or it could be held against him/her. But this is just like any other aspect of the job... if you don't follow the rules, it's held against you. But I've _never_ heard of an insurance company giving bonuses to appraisers for _using_ AM parts. There is a difference.

Quote:
The aftermarket radiators that I have seen come with a large warning label on them that says they are not warrantied unless the system is flushed which usually makes them not cost effective.
I could see that... though how would a radiator be installed unless the fluid was changed?

Quote:
Tcope, I think I understand why you don't respect the people who do this work. Let me tell you that their is no shortage of people who do.
People who push DV or adjusters (I'm sure there are more that hate adjusters Smile ). I just don't agree with pushing DV and it only benefits an extremely small portion of people and will only serve to increase insurance cost for everyone. Also, it's vary nature is that it's a perceived loss in value. The loss in value has nothing to do with the repairs making the vehicle any less functional.
tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:28 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
People who push DV or adjusters (I'm sure there are more that hate adjusters ). I just don't agree with pushing DV and it only benefits an extremely small portion of people and will only serve to increase insurance cost for everyone. Also, it's vary nature is that it's a perceived loss in value. The loss in value has nothing to do with the repairs making the vehicle any less functional.




There would be no need for DV if the public had the confidence that enough was being paid to repair cars correctly and short cuts weren't being taken trying to accomodate those discounts promised to insurers inexchange for referrals. This is another form of payola, giving away the profits to keep the work coming in. I could care less if I never had to write another DV report. I wish all repairers would be accountable to their customers rather than the adjusters trying to shepherd the companies gold. When people regain the confidence of repairers those notions that a wrecked and repaired cars are not worth as much as one that has not suffered damage would diminish or cease to exist.



You pay for cheap repairs with imititaion parts, you get cheap wrecked and repaired cars for trade in.


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:12 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
There would be no need for DV if the public had the confidence that enough was being paid to repair cars correctly and short cuts weren't being taken trying to accomodate those discounts promised to insurers inexchange for referrals.
I don't think the public is the driving force of DV... I think it's the people who make a living off pushing it that is the driving force. So yes, I think it would still exist.



But hey, I said it before and I'll say it again... I'd rather not see any insurance company allow for AM parts. But the flip side is that parts prices would triple and insurance rates would be raised to accommodate it. Anyone for paying 50% higher premiums and no AM parts would be used _if_ you happen to need them?
tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

All times are GMT
 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next  
Page 2 of 9


Get free auto insurance quote
State Auto Insurance Laws in USA

USA Auto Insurance laws
Ask Community Experts

flash plugin

Quick Links

Must See

Community

Hot topics in forums

Latest in blogs

AmPmInsure on Facebook



Page loaded in 0.285 seconds.