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 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Okay, I'll amend my declarative statement:
IN FLORIDA |
 that'll do...thanks
Always glad to meet another show me state native...BTW, I appreciate your posts, and particication, you are a welcome asset to the site, THANKS, again!
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Lori
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Lori,
Just to make a point,.....and correct me if I'm WRONG....., that Missouri Statute doesn't make any distinction between group life insurance or individually owned life insurance and it doesn't state the new spouse automatically gets the death benefit.
It just says the former spouse's beneficiary designation is revoked upon dissolution of marriage which does nothing more than cause the life insurance proceeds to end up in Probate Court. There is no way for the Court to determine the insured's intent regarding the beneficiary designation after the person is dead.
That is horrible legislation and is an example of Big Brother Government at its WORST! For the state govenment to interfere with a private contract with something as contractually fundamental as the beneficiary designation on a life insurance policy is pathetic.
Edit: Added footnote from MO law,
| Quote: | | (2001) State statute providing that designation of spouse as beneficiary of a nonprobate asset was automatically revoked upon divorce held to be invalid as preempted by Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA). Egelhoff v. Egelhoff ex rel. Breiner, 121 S.Ct. 1322, 149 L.Ed.2d 264. |
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GarySpicuzza
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Just to make a point,.....and correct me if I'm WRONG....., that Missouri Statute doesn't make any distinction between group life insurance or individually owned life insurance and it doesn't state the new spouse automatically gets the death benefit. |
You're right Gary, and honestly all I know is that I've been involved (personally-I'm a P&C adjuster not life)...in three or four of these, and it's always been the 'group' policys that did this, in two instances there were private policys and they paid the named ex without question....one of them the group policy sent a letter stating although the 'ex' was named they were going to pay the present spouse, (they sourced some statute)...but we got that decision reversed...that's all this ole' girl knows, if from these practial experiences ... | Quote: | | nothing more than cause the life insurance proceeds to end up in Probate Court. There is no way for the Court to determine the insured's intent regarding the beneficiary designation after the person is dead. |
agreed however, who is 'next of kin' in probate? present spouse of course...which I'd bet is who it's awarded to more times than not...
| Quote: | | That is horrible legislation and is an example of Big Brother Government at its WORST! For the state govenment to interfere with a private contract with something as contractually fundamental as the beneficiary designation on a life insurance policy is pathetic. |
Preachin' to the choir brother....there should be some sort of rule or statue stating that once the company is informed of a divorce that the person who's life is insured is sent the necessary documents immediately, and 'something' must be signed, either, keep the bene.as is change it etc..that makes sense....
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Lori
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: Poa forgot to enter poa beside signature on life insurace |
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our poa who is not receiving any compensation forgot to enter poa beside his signature on a life insurence beneficiary change form
previous beneficiary of life insurance policy was a women who was having an affair with a good friend of mine. She never left her husband but joe fell in love with her. she went back to her husband 2.5 years ago but John never changed beeficiary on life insurance policy.Two week before Joe death my lifetime friend passed away he let everyone know that his ex girl fiiend was not to be the beneficiary. He named two life long friends as the beneficiary of the policy. the poa did not have Joe sign the new beneficiary form but signed it himself but forgot to add poa on the form. everything else is correct. The insurance company does not like the way the form was filled out. What do we do
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Art
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 5th Circuit rules ex-wife can get insurance benefits despite provisions in divorce decree
By USA, Lawyers
Publication: Lawyers USA
Date: Monday, October 23 2006
A husband's designation of his ex-wife as the beneficiary of his life insurance policy survives a divorce decree that purportedly divested her of any interest in his insurance policies, the 5th Circuit has ruled.
The husband died two weeks after the couple's divorce decree was finalized. The decree stated that the ex-wife was divested of all claim to the husband's insurance policies, including his life insurance policy. But the husband never changed his life insurance designation, and the ex-wife was still listed as the primary beneficiary.
Both the ex-wife and the husband's mother filed claims for the insurance proceeds. The insurer contended that the ex-wife - as the designated beneficiary - was the rightful claimant.
The court agreed.
"[T]he party designated as the principal beneficiary prevails, regardless of any contrary state court decrees. ... [The husband] was free at any time to change his designated beneficiary. He chose not to, and there is no indication ... that he intended to, so his designation of [the wife] as the policy's principal beneficiary is controlling."
The court cited similar rulings from the 8th and 11th Circuits. |
The U. S. Supreme Court in interpreting a Washington statute similar to Missouri's, ruled that in the case of an ERISA plan, the policy documents control. If it is not an ERISA plan, the Missouri law would probably govern and more than likely preclude the ex-wife's claim.
Just thought I'd give you guys something else to discuss.
Maze
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InsuranceMaze
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Great information 'Maze!
That's the way it should be!
What that Missouri Law has done is turn insurance contract law upside down and allow lawyers and a probate judge to decide a deceased person's intent.
| Quote: |
"[T]he party designated as the principal beneficiary prevails, regardless of any contrary state court decrees. ... [The husband] was free at any time to change his designated beneficiary. He chose not to, and there is no indication ... that he intended to, so his designation of [the wife] as the policy's principal beneficiary is controlling." |
Sometimes the Court's get it exactly correct!
In Florida there is a specific statute 222.13 (1) that says quite clearly:
Whenever any person residing in the state shall die leaving insurance on his or her life, the said insurance shall inure exclusively to the benefit of the person for whose use and benefit such insurance is designated in the policy, and the proceeds thereof shall be exempt from the claims of creditors...
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GarySpicuzza
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:47 am Post subject: Life Insurance |
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Ok...here's the 'senario'. My POA is a Beneficiary on my Will ( Military Will). However......my mom/dad and son are on my Life Insurance. Mom/dad gets half and Son gets half. If something happens to my parents, BEFORE the Life Insurance is disturbursed, and my son is under age ( 1 , then isn't up to my POA (On Will not Life Insurance) to do what she needs to do? OR.......should I add my POA onto the Life Insurance? |
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sdchargersfan
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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You are really asking a legal question here and so far I havent't seen any known attorneys posting.
As I understand, a Power of Attorney (POA) allows someone to make certain business transactions on your behalf while you are not available or unable to to so.
It has been my personal experience that POA's have their limitations, whether it is a "limited" POA or "unlimited" POA. My daugher could not conduct the final closing on a new home purchase even though she had a POA and her husband was on deployment in Iraq.
Most often, other legal documents have no control over the beneficiary designation in a life insurance contract.
Something you might consider is to make your parents guardian of a minor child in your Will. That way if something should happen to you while your kid(s) are underage, the courts would more than likely go along with your wishes.
Also, on your life insurance beneficiary designation form, there are probably two sections to make designations - (1) Primary beneficiary and (2) Contingent beneficiary. If you truly want the life insurance proceeds slit 50/50, the designation should be made something like this:
Primary Beneficiary: Mom & Dad - 50%
Son - 50%
If you made it this way:
Primary Beneficiary: Mom & Dad
Contingent Beneficary: Son
The "Mom & Dad" would have to be deceased for the "Son" to receive insurance benefits at your death.
Just don't get "Wills", "POAs" and "life insurance" mixed up.
Maze
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InsuranceMaze
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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great info Maze...The way it is set up in our family (re: grandbabies)...Is I and/or grandpa are full beneficiarys and the children are contingent...that's not actually true...I can't remember the wording the kids are the primary however Poppy and I are the executors or financial guardians,(maybe?)...at any rate, should their parents expire prior to any of the kids turning 25yrs old, Poppy and I have the ''say so'' in all monetary matters...the money is to go to the children from their parents however they would not have full control over it until they reached 25 years old....hope that helps...
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Lori
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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sdchargersfan wrote:
| Quote: | | Ok...here's the 'senario'. My POA is a Beneficiary on my Will ( Military Will). However......my mom/dad and son are on my Life Insurance. Mom/dad gets half and Son gets half. If something happens to my parents, BEFORE the Life Insurance is disturbursed, and my son is under age ( 1, then isn't up to my POA (On Will not Life Insurance) to do what she needs to do? OR.......should I add my POA onto the Life Insurance? |
sd'fan I'm going to take each issue you raised one at at time:
"Ok...here's the 'senario'. My POA is a Beneficiary on my Will"
Your Will ONLY controls property that you own in your own individual name. The POA dies with you. An agent or attorney-in-fact under a Power-of-Attorney DOES NOT have control of assets after you are dead.
"However......my mom/dad and son are on my Life Insurance. Mom/dad gets half and Son gets half."
Who ever is named as the Primary Beneficiary gets the money. If they die BEFORE you and then you die, then the contingent beneficiary gets the money. You could have mulitple primary and/or contingent beneficiaries.
"If something happens to my parents, BEFORE the Life Insurance is disturbursed, and my son is under age 1, then isn't up to my POA (On Will not Life Insurance) to do what she needs to do?"
No. Your POA has absolutely nothing to do with the disbursment of your life insurance proceeds. The life insurance will be paid directly to the named primary beneficiary of the life insurance policy OR in the case of a minor child to the Court Appointed Guardian of the minor child for the benefit of minor child.
"OR.......should I add my POA onto the Life Insurance?"
You can name who ever you want as the beneficiary on your life insurance policy. However, please understand that when you do, the money is their's and their's alone to do what they want and spend as they please.
I don't know what you mean by "Military Will" a person's Last Will and Testament is their Last Will and Testament. There isn't any special Last Will and Testament just because one is in the military.
EXCEPT:
Law Dictionary: Military Will
A relaxation of formal requirements for wills for members of the armed services while in actual military service. Page, Wills §1.3, 6; §20.26, 321-24 (2d ed. 2000). The will may be oral or written, Page, Wills §1.3, 6 (2d ed. 2000), sometimes without witnesses, Page, Wills §20.25, 318, 320 (2d ed. 2000) and can be made by minors. Atkinson, Handbook of the Law of Wills ch. 9, 371-72 (2d ed. 1953). The will is not contingent on the physical condition of the testator/testatrix at the time the will is made. Page, Wills §20.25, 320 (2d ed. 2000).
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GarySpicuzza
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| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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I hope at least, if nothing else, we have caused everyone to realize just how important beneficiary designations are in a life insurance contract.
What a person actually "meant" to happen at their death just may not happen if that person was not very specific in making the proper beneficiary designations.
We can name whoever we want, but who ever we really want better be named and in the right order.
| Quote: | | "[T]he party designated as the principal beneficiary prevails, regardless of any contrary state court decrees. ... [The husband] was free at any time to change his designated beneficiary. He chose not to, and there is no indication ... that he intended to, so his designation of [the wife] as the policy's principal beneficiary is controlling." |
I wish this was a federally mandated law.
If a man and wife had a child that was mentally or physically challenged and they later became divorced, but the man wanted his wife or ex-wife, whichever the case might be, to receive the proceeds of his group life insurane to take care of the challenged child, why should anyone be able to question that? For a group plan to just say, well "no", he's divorced now so the ex-wife has no interest here is just plain stupid.
If we ever get to the point where life insurance "beneficiaries" are successfully challenged and overturned in court, the entire insurance industry will go down the drain.
After all, up to now, life insurance is just about the only thing that we can leave to whoever we want to leave it to and feel comfortable that our wishes will be carried out at our death.
There are just too many greedy people who come out of the woodwork when death occurs.
Maze
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InsuranceMaze
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: See if it could be helped! |
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Hi all,
It feels good to present another one in this regard from someone called AimB>
| Quote: | My husband had life insurance through his employer - both an employer paid policy as well as suplemental employee paid. When he origianally started working there in 2000 he designated his ex-wife as beneficiary (they were still legally married at the time) In 2003, we were married and he filled out a new form listing me as his beneficiary. (which we foolishly didn't make a copy of!)
My husband died this past February.
Now that it is time to collect the life insurance they are telling me that the replacement form name me isn't in their records! So the whole lot is being left to his ex-wife.
Can I contest this??? |
See if you guys could pose as guides!
Regards,
Lakemen
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
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 Warning, I'm putting on my sarcastic hat.
And I'm putting on my, I don't believe this story hat. 
And I'm reverting back to the very first thing I was taught when I became an insurance agent.
The first thing that should be taught to new life insurance agents is:
People change, when people die.
With that in mind...what a bogus story!
Look IF he had sent up a Beneficiary Change Form to the insurance company they would have endorsed the change, kept the original on file and sent the insured the endorsed copy for his records.
If the insured really, really, really deep down to his soul wanted the new wife to really, really, really be his new beneficiary he would have made absolutely sure that had been accomplish.
Who was pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing (did I say pushing enough times yet) for him to make this change?
Was it the new wife?
Regarding the old wife,.... tell me something new wife...is she self supportive, is she the custodian parent of small children, are there other family dynanmics we should know about?
Okay, forget about all that...let's take the story at face value.
Husband sends up bene change form, new wife is all kissy and huggy, end of story. AND THEY NEVER ONCE BOTHER TO FOLLOW UP TO SEE IF THIS VERY IMPORTANT CHANGE HAS BEEN ACCOMPISHED.
Gee whiz, what should society do with the clueless clowns that inhabit the Earth along with reasonable persons with common sense?
I know, let's hold these idiots hands and pass Missouri Statute 461.051. 1
OR
Let's revert back to the Court case cited above:
"[T]he party designated as the principal beneficiary prevails, regardless of any contrary state court decrees. ... [The husband] was free at any time to change his designated beneficiary. He chose not to, and there is no indication ... that he intended to, so his designation of [the wife] as the policy's principal beneficiary is controlling."
Maybe, just maybe, he told you and even showed you the beneficary change form to finally shut you up about this issue with no intention whatsoever of EVER naming you as his beneficairy on his life insurance.
We will never know will we because he died. Let's not substitute a financially interested person's story for the clear intent of what the insured designated in his life insurance contract.
and don't ever forget......
People Change, when People Die.
This concludes this  box rant!
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GarySpicuzza
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If the insured really, really, really deep down to his soul wanted the new wife to really, really, really be his new beneficiary he would have made absolutely sure that had been accomplish. |
OR He's just your average/regular guy that thought, 'I filled out the form gave it to the lady, I'm done now'' without knowing or wondering why he didn't get a return copy....or ''new'' wife MADE him fill it out he did then pitched it out the window on the way to work!
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Lori
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| Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: insurance |
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| Thank you EVERYONE!! Ya'll have been VERY helpful in my 'insurance issue'. 'You have given me some GREAT ideas! I know a 'Military Will' is just a will ( lack of a better word), however.I've actually had SOME people tell me that a Military Will is not valid in the 'Civilian World.' I KNOW that information is 100% INCORRECT. Thanks, again, for everyone's advice. |
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