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 Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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I know the appraiser that I used was not a certified mechanic but had inspected damaged vehicles long enough to know when there was damage. The big problem that I see is how did the shop miss the damage during tear down. Reading back through the posts, I didn't read anywhere what kind of damage there was to the hood. Was it able to be opened? Was the engine accessible during the first inspection? I know my guy would say the same thing to people, “I can't evaluate mechanical repairs due to the condition of the vehicle at this time, and your shop will call me back out once tear down is complete if they find additional damage”. Knowing how people only hear what they want to hear, some people would only hear “I can't evaluate mechanical repairs”. The shop dropped the ball in not noticing the damage prior to repairing the vehicle. If they would have noticed the damage and called the appraiser prior to the vehicle being repaired this would have been handled on the spot. An insurance company could look at it as you had custody of the vehicle for how long... a day... or more.... what did you do to the vehicle since you had custody of it?
That being said, it does appear that the appraiser is being unreasonable to a reasonable cause of damage… and it sounds as if it will be taken care of. |
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Dasfuk
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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The hood was able to be opened and closed. The tire was snapped so only that area was inaccessible. I understand our trying to get a clear view of things but I did not hear what I wanted to hear. It was what he said and I was very displeased when he said it. I'm not sure if the shop "missed" it or they never did a tear down in the first place. Obviously I'm very disappointed in the Ford Body shop, appraiser service, and the insurance company itself. Yes, the shop should have called it and notified the appraiser, but the appraiser seems completely unreliable.
I don't know what you are trying to get at with what I did to the vehicle snce taking custody. I drove it back and forth from school and work. I happened to check the fluids a week or so after, and noticed both my radiator and reserve were bone dry. I was pretty pissed since that could have ruined my engine. The temp gauge never went past middle. Thats when I noticed that the leak i thought was just AC water was actually coolant. NOTHING happened to the truck that could have caused this damage after I received it back. |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Lori,
I'm curious if you could check out the Total/value of my truck if that is within your power. I'll give you any info you need. I'd just really like to see something |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:52 am Post subject: |
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I was not getting at anything, only pointing out that the insurance company could look at it as you had the vehicle back for x amount of time and could question what happened between the time your car was fixed and released to you and the time that you took the car to your mechanic. Myself, I can't comment on what happened as I did not see your vehicle, only pointing out that these types of things happen and I have seen insurance companies handle them differently.
If the engine was accessible, then the appraiser was just being lazy figuring the shop would catch all additional damage and just call him. A lot of independent appraisers get paid per car, and not how much damage or how long it actually takes them to do the appraisal. So they usually want to get in an out and rely on the shops to do most of the inspection for them. |
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Dasfuk
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:15 am Post subject: |
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Ok so here is where I am right now.
The guy from the insurance company's special division that handles this type of problem asks the mechanic to prove it was damage caused by the accident. There apparently is no smoking gun, but the meachanic swears whatever is wrong with the truck is not a normal wear and tear occurance. He claims he has NEVER seen this happen naturally in all of his experience. The insurance guy basically kept saying "prove it" and offered no other explanation of what could have caused it. They know it is not normal but are putting the burden on me to prove it was the accident that caused the damage. They insurance guy left off with the mechanic saying he needed to speak to his supervisor and go from there. Amazing.
So what now? it's becoming very obvious they have no intention on fixing the vehicle. Their tactic of putting the burden of proof on me is completel BS. This is what I know. My truck was not leaking coolant before the accident. After a forceful, front end impact, it was leaking fluid. It sort of seems like the classic US vs THEM game, so is there a way to get a 3rd party involved?
I imagine I'll be talking to the insurance company in the morning. Any advice? |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:46 am Post subject: |
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Yes the burden of proof is on you to prove your loss and no they don't have to give an alternative explanation as to what happened to cause the "new" damage. The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim. And yes I understand your problems with the appraiser, but to be honest they are there to basically make sure that the claimed damage is actually there either during the initial inspection or additional inspections if additional damage is found. This is the problem with the shop missing the damage prior to you taking the vehicle.
Solutions:
Were there any photos taken of the vehicle after the accident, either at the scene or at the original shop that might show the engine? Have you taken the vehicle back to the original shop and spoke to them and have them look at it? They maybe able to assist you or you could go after them. Lori might be able to give you more advice as to other proof that you could come up with or other avenues to pursue.
As far as dealing with the insurance company, I would say really all you can do is appeal to their humanity and any common sense they have, since at this point you don't have any actual proof. Be nice and stay calm and don't burn bridges since even another no is not a final answer, as there is no final answer until you go away. Explain that you had the vehicle for only x number of days since the original repairs and that this type of shifting could not have happened any other way without new body damage. |
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Dasfuk
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: |
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Well, they have never claimed that any additional damage happened AFTER the accident. There only claim is that there is no proof the damage wasnt there before the accident. So yes I'm pretty sure it would be in their best interest to come up with a reasonable explanation.
There is also one more bit of information that I thought I had included bt maybe I forgot. There was a street sign lodged underneath my truck after the accident. I believe it was a yield( yes hilarious) sing or stop sign. Something of that nature. The adjuster has a tape of me reporting this to her and cannot deny it. This was the basis of me asking to have the appraiser look at it in the first place.
As far as any photos, no i don't have any. The Ford shop may have taken some, but if they did they never said anything. It is quite obvious to me that neither the appraiser nor the shop had any interest in inspecting the engine. I suppose I could take it back to them to have them look at it. I'm not too thrilled about that because they dropped the ball pretty badly the first time around.
As far as not having any proof, I guess common sense doesn;t count for anything in the insurance game. pathetic. |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: |
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Understood, they are claiming prior damage. It still leads to a question of proof on your part. When your truck was orginally in the shop, the shop was assiting you in proving your claim. Sure the exterior damage is pretty visible, but still your shop is still assiting you on presenting your claim. The appraiser is there to verify the damages they are (you are) claiming. When the shop missed the engine area damage and submitted an estimate or invoice, they basically are saying here are all the damages. When there are no supplements or phone calls with additional damage prior to releasing the vehicle why wouldn't the insurance company believe that your shop checked the truck and everything else was okay.
Yes common sense should come into play and your damages seem reasonable with your discription of the accident and the yeild/stop sign. Lets hope this supervisor has some.
I'm am however really not sure and maybe Lori could answer what happens if they do accept the damages as accident related. At this time the estimated 1K of damages are the only things not repaired. Is the car totaled with the new damages even though the rest are now repaired? Can the vehicle be repaired and not totaled? Never dealt with new damages found after the car was repaired and drove for days that would have met the threshold if found during repairs. |
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Dasfuk
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Yea, I'd definately like to hear from Lori |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Lori,
I'm curious if you could check out the Total/value of my truck if that is within your power. I'll give you any info you need. I'd just really like to see something |
Why sure could...give me yr/make/model/milege/ALL options...
Couple of problems you have here, that are becoming alittle clearer to me as this thread goes on...first...you do have (as dasfuk stated) the burden of proving your loss, pure and simple sorry that's just how it is...you can get mad about it, I (nor anyone else on this site) make the rules...it is what it is...so lets move on to trying to prove it.... | Quote: | | I happened to check the fluids a week or so after, and noticed both my radiator and reserve were bone dry. |
DING DING DING! The damage was more than likely already done by this time...WHEN EXACTLY (from the time you picked up your truck) did you discover this? And then how long till you contacted someone about it? What did you do EXACTLY when you found this? Honestly I'm begining to think that it's highly likely that the accident did not cause the additional damage, but rather the repairing shop did!....I really can't evaluate what contact they had with certain parts without seeing the estimate of repair...would you just atleast copy it from the front of the vehicle until it gets to the door? (such as, the estimate will say something like, r&r left fender, or repair left fender, r&i front bumper etc)....Please also 'define' snapped the wheel....was their suspsension and steering damage if so what was repaired or replaced?
Another thing...we need to know EXACTLY what the new damage is, you just said water pump ,and something else...you have their estimate right? Let us know what they say is damaged now...also the mechanic shop saying, | Quote: | | 'meachanic swears whatever is wrong with the truck is not a normal wear and tear occurance. He claims he has NEVER seen this happen naturally in all of his experience. |
This is of zero use...there has to be evidence of an impact or collision causing the damage...try to calm down some, I know you're upset and pissed and rightfully so, but truly we are trying to help you just need some detailed information to attempt to do so, ok?
Was your vehicle leaking fluid at the scene? Was it towed? If so to where? Someone (I can gaurantee) has photos, more than likely the independent appraiser took some right? Remind me where was your truck when he inspected it? Did the body shop give you a copy of a 'final' bill when you picked up your truck? If so does it differ from the one the appraiser gave you? Did they pay you or the shop? If the shop, then call the adjuster and ask how much the draft was they sent to the shop? Is it EXACTLY the same as the estimate the appraiser wrote?
| Quote: | | I'm am however really not sure and maybe Lori could answer what happens if they do accept the damages as accident related. At this time the estimated 1K of damages are the only things not repaired. Is the car totaled with the new damages even though the rest are now repaired? Can the vehicle be repaired and not totaled? Never dealt with new damages found after the car was repaired and drove for days that would have met the threshold if found during repairs |
I've seen this go both ways...however by law I believe the carrier (even after most repairs have been made) must advise the owner and give them the option to continue with the additional repair and keep it, or total it then...I've seen this happen about oh, half a dozen times in my career and this has always been the solution, and yes, every single one wanted the vehicle totaled...
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Lori
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Lori,
I'm going to try and answer your questions to the best of my ability. Before I do I want to make clear that if I capitalize a word it's not "yelling", I'm just trying to stress the word itself. So I'm not, or haven't gotten angry at anything you have tried to help with.
The truck is a 2000 Ford Ranger 2wd SuperCab XLT Sport. Mileage is about 93000. Power windows, door locks, ABS,sliding rear window. CD player, chrome wheels. The interior is in very very nice condition.
I discovered the leak about a week or so after receiving the truck back from the shop. My first reaction upon seeing the coolant storage was dry was that the shop had forgotten to replace the coolant. Since the temp gauge never fluctuated it's not something I would have noticed until I checked the fluids. I filled the radiator and reserve tank and the next day I noticed what I thought was air conditioning water dripping. I drove it to work and the college. Each time I arrived wherever I was going I checked to see if it was leaking. Again, this started as a very slow leak, so when I would check immediately after driving there would be nothing on the ground. I would find the coolant on my driveway after it sat for awhile. It was a few days later that I discovered it was coolant, not water. I initially thought it was the other car leaking, but it turned out to be mine. I work 5 nights per week and am taking 5 classes this semester, so it was at the first time available that I brought the truck in, not too long after discovering it was an actual slow coolant leak from my truck.
The repair shop did not give me a recepit of each part they replaced, but the insurance company sent it to me, so I will use that for you. The Body shop only has the following:
SPINDLE
ARM ASY- FRONT SU
WHEELS -USED
The estimate the insurance company sent says the following:
FRONT BUMPER-REPAIR
FRONT BUMPER-REFINISH
FRONT BUMPER ASSEMBLY R&I
WHEEL, FRONT
WHEEL, REAR
ARM, UPPER CONTROL
PANEL, ROCKER
PANEL, ROCKER
the rest just appears to be door and bed related repairs
I know that the shop had supplemental damage while it was there, i'm guessing that is the spindle, ball joints etc. I'm guessing the ARM ASY- FRONT SU is all inclusive. I don't believe they had any contact with the engine while making those repairs.
The estimate from the mechanic is as follows:
-LABOR-9 HOURS
-TIMING COVER GASKET
-OIL PAN GASKET
-LOF(OIL CHANGE)
-WATER PUMP
-LOWER HOSE
-COOLANT
-CLAMPS
-TIMING CHAIN COVER
Obviously what kills is the 9 hour labor process as they have to drop the engine etc...
As far as the truck leaking at the scene, I do not know. we ended up in grass, and the truck was towed right off of the grass so it was hard to see anything as far as leaks.
The first time the appraiser looked at the truck in the salvage yard. The second time he looked at it with the mechanic and i imagine took pictures of the truck.
As far as payment, the insurance company sent me an initial check for $1700 before repairs had even begun. I ended up signing over this check to the repair shop after repairs were complete, but the check was less than half of what the total cost of repairs were due to the initial estimate and supplemental costs. I believe the final cost was upwards of $4000. The "final bill" the Ford shop gave me contained what I posted above. So i don't think even if I had an appraiser estimate(which I don't, unless you mean the copy the insurance company sent me) I doubt they would match
Hope that helps, and thanks for your help
Jon |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The truck is a 2000 Ford Ranger 2wd SuperCab XLT Sport. Mileage is about 93000. Power windows, door locks, ABS,sliding rear window. CD player, chrome wheels. The interior is in very very nice condition. |
Need to know the following: style or flare side? (flare side will have the big fenders on the bed...won't be a straigt line on the bed)..2 or 4 door? towing/camper pkg, w/or without ac./(never mind can see you have air conditioning) auto matic, cruise control?
| Quote: | | I brought the truck in, not too long after discovering it was an actual slow coolant leak from my truck |
Did you take the truck back to the shop that repaired it? Or call them once you discovered this leak? (and we are sure it's coolant right?) | Quote: | SPINDLE
ARM ASY- FRONT SU
WHEELS -USED |
| Quote: | | ARM, UPPER CONTROL |
alright that's just steering and suspension (how does/did it drive by the way?)
From what you have listed it doesn't seem that the shop would've had to r&i the radiator (certainly wouldn't have had to remove the coolant?)...but they should've noticed it was leaking while in the shop...most 'quality' shops will as a customer service check all fluids etc...but of course they are not required to...
| Quote: | | believe the final cost was upwards of $4000. |
Honey, call the shop that repaired your truck, and ask them for a copy of the final bill that will show EVERY SINGLE THING that was done to your truck (i'm not yelling either  ).....because this just isn't adding up....the shop also would've had to have done an alignment....ask for a copy of the alignment sheet as well...many times techs (to 'cya' ) will make notes, ie, leak noticed etc....I'm worried alittle about this, because of the repair the mech. are saying it needs....could you ask them too if the timing belt broke?
Will try and pull this up while on the road (working) today...
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Lori
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, it is a flareside 2 door, has a towing hitch and is automatic. No cruise control.
I opted not to take it back to Ford because I just do not trust them. I called them and they claim they need to see it themselves, which is understandable, but again I have zero faith in them. And yes absolutely positive it is coolant.
I'm not sure but the truck wouldn't be drivable if the timing chain broke right? The truck is drivable.
*update*
I called Ford (the original repair shop) and I'm not surprised by what I was told. Miraculously the guy instantly remembered my truck and claims to remember there being no damage in that area, without looking at any paperwork, estimates, etc. He did say however, that this damage has to be caused by something, most likely an accident. UNBELIEVABLE |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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I'm getting an ACV of 7900.00 if it's a 4cyl you need to deduct 300.00 from that (I forgot to ask you that)...also was there ANY prior UNrepaired damage to the truck? If so this will likley come into play as well re: the value....
| Quote: | | I called Ford (the original repair shop) and I'm not surprised by what I was told. Miraculously the guy instantly remembered my truck and claims to remember there being no damage in that area, without looking at any paperwork, estimates, etc. He did say however, that this damage has to be caused by something, most likely an accident. UNBELIEVABLE |
well that's good news right? They would more than likley advise the ins. carrier of the same (?)....I don't think your truck could run if the timing chain was broken no....I'm just curious, why they'd be replacing the cover, (and course gasket)...must have a crack or something (?)...which of course would mean.....say it with me folks...IMPACT....OK, Where is the truck now? Has anyone from the underside looked (with a flash light) really good to see if they can see where this sign hit? This needs to be done....
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Lori
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Lori,
Thanks for checking that for me. It is a 3.0 v6 flex fuel. The only prior damage would be light scratching on the hood. I'm curious at what cost level would you total out the truck?
I don't know about good news. I don't know how someone who supposedly inspected the engine a month ago would instantly remember NO damage to that area of the truck without looking at any papers. Just seemed like too quick of an answer to me.
Yes, the timing chain cover and gasket is cracked which is the source of the leak. It's nice to have someone else acknowledge that. The truck is still at the mechanic's shop. I do not know about checking damage the sign could have caused.
I spoke to the insurance company yesterday. They basically told me nothing except that he had forwarded it to his supervisor who was in meetings all day(riiiiiiight) and that it didn't look like the damage would be covered. When I asked them if they aren't claiming accident damage, what explanation are they claiming is the cause, they couldn't answer. He also claimed that this was ONLY a water pump and didnt know anything about the timing chain cover, which is simply amazing since he had the mechanic's estimate in front of him where it clearly says...wait for it...... TIMING CHAIN COVER. |
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joncuro
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