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 Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:50 am Post subject: Dispute with Auto Insurance Appraiser |
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Hey everyone,
I have some pretty serious questions/insurance issues that I need some help with. First a little background:
About a month ago I was hit on my front left by someone who failed to yield the right of way. Her insurance company claimed liability and after 3 weeks my 2000 Ford Ranger was "fixed". After bringing the truck home I noticed there was a small coolant leak. I had asked the Ford body shop to inspect the whole truck top to bottom as the impact was pretty hard. After hitting me she pushed me across a lane of traffic and we ended up in a grass area on the side of the road, and a sign was lodged under my truck Apparently Ford did not do this, thus me discovering the leak and not them. I took my truck to an very reputable mechanic in town, and right away they recognized that an impact had caused the damage. In their words" natural wear and tear does not happen in this area, anyone who knwos engines should know this. An impact is needed to cause something like this.
After contacting the insurance company, they sent the same appraiser who appraised the damage the first time. A little background about this guy. When he originally appraised the damage I asked him to look at the engine as the check engine light was on. His response was that as an appraiser he does not check the insides of vehicles, only estimates the outside damage and that he was not a mechanic. After checking my truck today, he said that in his opinion, after inspecting the engine, the damage was not caused by the accident. Everything he claims is in direct contradiction to a certified and very reputable mechanic. I asked him what exactly he was basing his opinion on, he mumbled something about a gasket and kept repeating, "its my opinion and thats what I'm reporting to the insurance company". He also claimed that a hard, front side impact in which a car that pushed a 3200 pound truck over a lane and into a grass area would have zero effect on an engine, which sounds completely ridiculous to me. So basically he had nothing to substantiate his "opinion". Naturally I have contacted the insurance agency and disputed this, but now it is the weekend and I won't hear anything for a few days.
So, I'm really just kind of curious how an appraiser who self admittedly is not a mechanic ,and refused to inspect an engine, comes to the conclusion that the damage is not accident related, directly contradicting a reputable mechanic. Is this their job or isn't it? I also find it interesting that with this added damage, the truck would have most certainly been a total loss as it is over $1000 in additional damage. Do I have any recourse here? I now own a truck that should have been totalled.
Any help or advice would be appreciated. thanks
Jon |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Naturally I have contacted the insurance agency and disputed this, but now it is the weekend and I won't hear anything for a few days. |
If you had a collision coverage then Subrogation would have been an option. Especially, since it seems you could easily achieve a certificate from the body-parts mechanic.
That apart, I feel its the duty of your insurer to guide you towards obtaining the liability benefits of the other party (since you say they are solely to be blamed for this mishap), before you go out for a consultation with an attorney. Hope, the seniors at the forum would come up with some good alternatives..
Plasticmind
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Plasticmind
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | sign was lodged under my truck |
How did they not know this? Who is Ford? Is that the body shop you had complete the work? Did they (by chance) on the original repair, (look at your estimate) replace the radiator, a.c. condensor, radiator support?
| Quote: | | His response was that as an appraiser he does not check the insides of vehicles, only estimates the outside damage and that he was not a mechanic. |
This is just one of the dumbest statements I've ever heard! geeze...this guy is a peach...but on the second inspection now he can look ''inside''?
| Quote: | | "its my opinion and thats what I'm reporting to the insurance company |
Ok so he's an independent adjuster, doesn't work for the company right? | Quote: | | as it is over $1000 in additional damage. |
WHAT? What is the additional? EXACTLY...What is ford or your mechanic saying needs to be done now? | Quote: | | they recognized that an impact had caused the damage. |
To what? What are they seeing that is damaged by an impact? You aren't clear on what this 'new' damage is...please explain that...then I'm fairly certain we will be able to assist you with some suggestions...need to know first, what parts where repaired or replaced in the first repair and now what is needed...ok?
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Lori
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Ford is the local Ford dealer body shop that I had it sent to for the initial repairs. From their repair list they do not report checking anything mechanical. I don't think the Ford dealer was to happy dealing with this automobile insurance company. The company called me sternly requesting that I have the truck moved from the salvage yard 2 days AFTER I had already had it towed to Ford. I then received a call from Ford asking for an alternate number to the insurance agency because they had not heard from and were unable to contact the insurance agency 3 days after my truck had arrived. As to why they didn't know about the sign, they DID know, as I specifically told both the insurance company in my initial taped conversation, and when I asked Ford to inspect everything from top to bottom
As far as the guy being a peach, don't get me started. He was rude the first time and even more rude the second time. When he called me yesterday I said hello and asked how he was, his response was "I'm good but you won't be doing so well". Then proceded to tell me he had bad news and would not tell the insurance company the newly discovered damage was part of the accident. That has nothing to do with the problem, but just shows what kind of clown he is. ANd yes, he is an independent appraiser, I don't know if appraiser is the same thing as an adjuster, but like I said several people, including the appraiser himself told me they do not look at the "inside" of vehicles, bt now he is doing just that and reporting his unqualified opinion as fact. So what is an appraisers job exactly when it comes to things mechanical?
The additional damage that the mechanic reported is a timing chain gasket, timing chain cover, water pump, etc...things in that area. As soona s he inspected these items he said " it's like everything has been shifted over and this doesnt happen naturally. I don't know how this could have happened unless it was an impact", which obviously it was. He also said everything appeared to be original parts which means noone had replaced or screwed anything up down there. Of course when the "appraiser" looked at the truck himself, he claims a gasket had been replaced, again how he would make that call over a mechanic, I do not know. I just find it amazing that this appraiser contradicted EVERYTHING the mechanic said.
The mechanic has no interest in who pays them. They have no reason to lie, and the appraiser is overstepping his bounds by calling their credibility into question.
Most of the parts that were repaired in the first repair job were cosmetic. The ford dealer replaced my front left tire, because the impact had snapped it off, along with everything that controls, supports the wheel. The rest was fixing the left panels, the bed, and painting.
Again I had requested to the insurance company and to the dealer that they inspect the whole truck from top to bottom, and neither one of them did. When i requested it from the appraiser, he claimed he does not check the insides of vehicles. When i requested it of Ford, they neglected to. Low and behold . I find a leak that a reputable mechanic insists is not a natural occurance, so much so that they have told me to request that the insurance company call them. But i have a feeling the insurance company will refuse to do that, and instead take the opinion of an appraiser who claims that a front impact in which a tire is snapped, a 3200 pound truck is moved acrossa seperate lane of traffic and pushed into a swale over a sign that is found under the truck, would have have NO effect on the engine whatsoever. Thanks for your help
Jon |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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First sometimes and adjuster and appraiser are the same (I am) but some times an appraiser is not an adjuster (sounds like your case maybe).... | Quote: | | So what is an appraisers job exactly when it comes to things mechanical |
He's/She's supposed to appraise the damage ALL OF IT...First off never heard of anybody calling an engine compartment 'inside'  brother....many times there are what you might refer to as 'mechanical' issues with collision repairs, as I mentioned, radiator, ac condensor, steering and oil coolers etc...so I don't know where this joker was trained, but he needs to go back....
| Quote: | | The additional damage that the mechanic reported is a timing chain gasket, timing chain cover, water pump, etc...things in that area. As soona s he inspected these items he said " it's like everything has been shifted over and this doesnt happen naturally. |
Well is there an actual impact at all that can be seen? even from the shifting? This is very unusual...I'm not sure how a water pump and timing chain and cover could've been damaged either to be honest without anything else in the are, this truck has a chain? ok did the timing chain break? if they are replacing the cover, then there must be damage to that as well right?
ARe you saying the damage to your truck from the impact was to the driver front, tire/wheel/ suspension/fender/door, then down the bedside? no bumper, lamps, grille, hood, cooling at all? or the left rail maybe? | Quote: | | I find a leak that a reputable mechanic insists is not a natural occurance, so much so that they have told me to request that the insurance company call them |
where was the leak originating? what did the post rest or wedge against?
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Lori
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| Posted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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I do not know if the timing chain has broken. They won't know that until they take everything apart. The total labor hours for this repair is 9.
I do not know what you mean by is there an impact at all that can be seen? The impact was on the front left, where the engine is housed. That is the impact. The girl hit me with her front, into my front, the impact was so forceful that her car swung, as did mine and our sides collided, then pushed us off into the swale area. I cop witnessed the whole thing. I'm not sure how you can see that has having no possible effect on an engine. If that force doesnt effect it I must have an indestructible engine. And yes sorry, the bumpers was either replaced or repaired.
As far as where the leak is originating, I do not know exactly. The mechanic reported that to the appraiser. Again I am stressing he is just an appraiser, not an adjuster. He reports to an adjuster. So as an appraiser is he qualified to make a decision?
As for the sign, it's kind of hard to describe but the sign was found after my truck was moved. My truck was sort of resting over a drainaige pipe type of thing, and the sign was discovered when the tow truck driver moved it |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Something I have seen done in the past... you can work you way up the chain of command at the insurance company and let them know that the independent shop is willing to state that the only way the damage could have happen is from an accident. Request that someone else, perhaps from the insurance company, feel free to inspect the vehicle and speak to the shop in person. If they won't do this, what about over the phone? Press the issue and explain that a shop with no vested interest in the outcome is stating it was caused by an impact.
There could be other reason's why the appraiser states it's not accident related. One reason I'm thinking is how no one could have known about the leak when it was being repaired. |
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tcope
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:26 am Post subject: |
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I can understand that if it had been inspected and overlooked, but it was not even inspected. What really burns me is that this appraiser previously stated he does not check fr mechanical damage, bt now is claiming to be able to tell what caused mechanical damage and what doesnt.
Thanks for your advice though Tcope,I immediately went up the chain to a supervisor because they tried kicking me back to the old agent who was horrible. |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I can understand that if it had been inspected and overlooked, but it was not even inspected. What really burns me is that this appraiser previously stated he does not check fr mechanical damage, bt now is claiming to be able to tell what caused mechanical damage and what doesnt |
yeah, I don't get this either...and would be stuck in my craw were I you as well.... | Quote: | | I do not know what you mean by is there an impact at all that can be seen? |
What I mean by this, is since the mechanic said this was due to an impact, not wear and tear (from the vehicle being knocked around) there should be some sign of stress on the damaged parts (water pump or timing chain cover)...this would clear it all up for you 100%...(an impact on any of these parts whether it be direct or from hard shifting of the motor)... | Quote: | | I'm not sure how you can see that has having no possible effect on an engine |
I didn't say that joncuro....just trying to help you get some 'bullets'........  tcope is right climb the ladder see if they will either send a 'different' inspector to the mechanic, or talk to the mechanic on the phone, they are gonna' want to know the answers to some of the questions I asked (where was the leak,) also as I said if the radiator was replaced, or removed, then they are going to want to know why the repairing shop didn't catch a leak, (assuming it was leaking antifreeze...)...how many miles on the truck?
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Lori
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| Posted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Lori,
According to the mechanic the whole area had been shifted and I imagine they found signs of stress, cracks etc. According to them wear and tear is very very rare in the area where the damage is. The mechanic is very willing to talk to the insurance company so I'm pretty confident they will provide all that information to them.
I didn't mean just you when I said I don't know how you can say that it would have no possible effect. The appraiser made the claim that a front end impact at that force would have zero effect on the engine, which is just unimaginable to me. The radiator was not replaced or removed that I know of as it appears the original shop didn't do half of what they were supposed to.
At the time of the accident the truck had around 92k. |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The radiator was not replaced or removed that I know of as it appears the original shop didn't do half of what they were supposed to. |
There are many repairs to the left front that would neseccitate the radiator coming out for repair access..I'm very concerned about this statement, are you saying that some things on the estimate that were to be repaired or replaced were not? Perhaps this led to some (or all) of your new problems...This is something you need to look into..if a shop was paid to complete certain tasks and they did not, then you have a lawsuit...and hopefully the carrier that paid for the repairs will back you..by chance was this a shop they recommended? If so then they should fully investigate and back you on that!!!
There are many collision that can cause a motor or parts in the engine compartment to shift....that movement will be evident in most cases, the mechanic will be able to show an appraiser where movement is seen, ie bolts shifted, this truck I think has 2 or 3 motor mounts, there might be some shifting or movement there...at any rate, the adjuster should have an experienced appraiser look at the vehicle IN THE SHOP with the mechanic there to be able to fully see any damage...If this is from the impact there will be signs...and from what you say the mech says there are there...just insist that a qualified appraiser look at the truck with the mechanic in the shop...or the handling adjuster may just request photos showing this.....
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Lori
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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I'm saying that I asked that the truck be fully inspected by both the appraiser and the Ford body shop. The appraiser's answer was that he does not inspect engines( something he directly contradicted on Friday) and the body shop said they would, but there is no record that they did. As far as what repairs are required to remove the radiator I have no idea. I am not a mechanic. From the report I received from Ford and the appraiser, the engine was never checked which is something i requested both of them to do. Which I find completely ridiculous and borderline incompetent by both the appraiser and Ford. The insurance company never suggested a shop. As I said the adjuster was extremely, EXTREMELY difficult to get in touch with. Remember, Ford had to call me to get a number for the insurance company as they hadn't contacted them 3 days after the truck had been towed to their shop.
Everything you siad, the mechanic did with the appraiser. The truck was ona lift, the mechanic reviewed it thoroughly with the appraiser and the appraiser came to the conclusion that the shift damage was not due to the accident. Again, he went so far as to claim that a front end collision would have ZERO effect on an engine. The mechanic seemed completeky surprised and even he said this appraiser was completely unqualified to make any call on it. The appraiser claims that there are replacement parts in the area, suggesting someone had shifted the parts( i don't know how thats even possible) and the mechanic maintains that the parts appear to all be original. Again, everything that the mechanic said seemed accident related, before knowing there was an accident, the appraiser (who deemed himself unable to appraise engine damage) contradicted. |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, the shop dropped the ball, they should've done a complete tear down (duh) and called the appraiser in for a supplement if additional damage was found...too late for that one...the appraiser well, we know his short comings...What I would suggest is that you call the adjuster at the at fault carrier explain all of this, that the appraiser said he didn't know anything about mechanics now he knows enough to deny the damage and you would like to have an apprasial done hopefully by an adjuster with their company that knows what's going on...or would it be ok with them if you got two or three shops to say that this damage is related...if that adjuster says no, then ask to speak to their supervisor, if they say no (tell them by the way you want this in writing) then file a complaint with your state's Dept of Ins..(they all have web sites)...That is my recommendation...let us know how it turns out or if we can be of further assistance.
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Lori
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| Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Lori,
just giving you a quick update. The claims agent( the one who is extremely difficult to get in touch with) said she was forwarding the situation to some inhouse division. T&C? or something she called it. Not sure of the exact name. Something control. He gave me a call about 5 mins ago, asked me a couple questions about the condition of the truck pre-accident and was going to give the mechanic a call and get his thoughts. He said he would be calling me back so we will see.
Just as a note. The claims agent flat out lied today when she called. She claimed that she spoke to the mechanic last week and he had said that he saw no accident related damage. Of course he denied this and was pretty angered by it as you can imagine.
Also a note about the shop dropping the ball. According to the claims agent(yes her again;p) she doesn't understand why the appraiser would say he could not check the engine. She also said that while he may not be certified he should be able to make a judgement call of accident related damage. That statement is pretty sad. I'd want a certified expert making these decisions |
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joncuro
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| Posted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | some inhouse division. T&C? |
I don't know what this is either  unless it's damage control  for being so goofy... The appraiser that looked at your vehicle should be able to inspect the entire vehicle for damage, and if he/she doesn't know enough about a certain area, then they should ask for help/advise from someone that does...that's all there is to that...hopefully the supervising adjuster (the one that hired this independent) will either report this behavior to their superior or not hire them again...
It sounds like they are atleast looking into it deeper that's good news..please do keep us updated...
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Lori
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