/bTruth is, body shop estimates differ as much as insurance company appraisals.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:33 pm   Post subject:   

Lori,



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There is a problem with your Book time of .5 (one half of an hour -- thirty minuets).
Not on R&I Fred! you should know that!
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What about Stall time waiting for the appraiser to show??
What waiting for them to show? You take off the cover, and put the car outside....it's not dead you know....
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And a few other items that could come into play.
What might those be Fred?


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Last edited by Lori on Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:49 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:28 pm   Post subject:   

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Before there were manuals or labor guides, the time for repairing and replacing was written in dollars and cents.
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The cost of repair was determined by the professional repairing the damage based on the amount in dollars that were required for the value of the service.
So what your saying is that there was little accountability in the industry. We _still_ see this today! Tell me this one thing... why is it when someone get's estimates from shops, they are all for different amounts and can differ easily by 25%? When you have a reasonable answer for this, let me know. [/b]Truth is, body shop estimates differ as much as insurance company appraisals.[/b] You just don't want to mention that as it really negates your point completely.



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In order for insurers to gain control of the collision industry, they began to rely on labor manuals with supposed time study guides. These guides were compromised with insurance company imput. Shops did not need guides other than parts price guides.
I'm not sure who put together the times but I don't doubt whatsoever that insurance companies helped put them together. When I get two body shop estimates and one wants twice as much labor time for the same job... I think it might be about time to place some accountability into the industry. When the companies come up with the repair times they actually video tape a repair person making the repair and time them. I'm guessing this is done with several different people. That way if someone wants to dispute the data, they have documentation on it. Ever heard of anyone disputing the data? Nope... truth is (and here it is...) almost all repair shops can easily repair a vehicle in LESS time then is allowed. THAT is how they make extra money.You don't mention this, as again, it negates your statement.



Are their times when a shop want more time and the insurance company does not want to allow it? Yup. In those cases I've heard that the appraiser and shop usually get together and work it out. One or both might not be happy about it but that is called life. I think I should be paid $1,000,000/year but I'm willing to make some concessions.



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Whats yur problem, see if you can get your repair shop to sign an affidavit stating that based on his professional expertise he has determined that rebar is damaged.
Not that my opinion is needed but I agree with this 100%! I think it would probably take care of the issue easily and quickly.



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Now the at fault insurer says the shop analysis of damage and pictures are not sufficient as they have to see the damage with their own eyes and document it. This is ludicrous to say the least.
Yeah, damn those people why want to actually confirm for themselves the damages they are going to pay for! It's not like the laws of the US allow for this type of thing. Also, what a hardship it is for the owner of the vehicle to have to let someone go out and look at their car! That is _so_ unreasonable. Why not just take the word of a perfect stranger each and _every_ time. Better yet, why not just send a blank check and have the person fill in the cost to repair the vehicle.



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Apparently proof to insurers only counts if they can control the scope of the examination of damage. Just remember that (whatsyurprob) are not bound by the terms and conditions of a policy of insurance that you are not contracted to. You are owed damages based on the negligence of their insured and tort law is the basis for remedy, not the at fault party's coverage.
Not bound by the terms of the policy but _IS_ bound by the laws of the US! it's called right of discovery (or something like that Smile ) and if the person does not produce the damaged item it's called Spoliation of Evidence.



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The vehicle owner's attorney at my suggestion told the insurer to pay for a towing of the vehicle to their preferred shop and pay for a dissassembly and then place the damage parts back on the car if they did not want to accept an experts analysis and documentation. This is no different than when an insurer demands before settlement that an injured person be examined by their expert doctor. The damaged party is not required to pay for the at fault party's expert opinion, use of their lab or office and equipment. It should be no different when settling issues on property damage.
Perfectly fair request. Though, usually insurance companies simply want to go out to the vehicle and inspect it where it is located. This is done all the time. I'm not sure what the situation was on your particular claim but it's possible that the damages were minor and the person is claiming extensive injuries (hence, the attorney). In that case the insurance _may_ want to pay to have the vehicle town down to by used as evidence. Might not have anything to do with the property damage.



No comment on diminishment of value? I thought perhaps this post got your ear for that reason. Smile I'm just kidding with you, Mike. I enjoy all your posts and welcome them. Smile
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:38 pm   Post subject:   

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It would appear that your comment on repair Time was based on DRP shops that are contracted to accept the times and prices specified on insurer estimates. (or risk being removed from the DRP list) That is very bogus information and we both know it.
NOT TRUE FRED....The estimates are written on a computer program same as your shop writes on...not included operations need to be added for...just as overlap needs to removed if the system did not do so...how do you write estimates in your shop?
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You basically have three data providers and in many instances, the times for identical operations will be inconsistent. There should be no reason for these inconsistencies with exception that the data providers use decreases in labor allowances to sell their products to insurers as one that can be proven to save insurers money.
The reason there are inconsistancies in the times is generally due to operator error, I've written in all three (adp, mitchell, and pathways)...while I would need a refresher in adp and pathways, (been on mitchell for about three or four years)...all of these systems operate/calculate differently some of them include some operations some do not...adp for example works from the inside out, mitchell out side in...so if you replace say a core support forward the times on each panel will be different but the bottom line, labor time wise should be pretty close if the appraiser knows how to do their job, and read the p pages (or whatever audatex/pathways calls theirs I can't remember)....THAT is the reason for the variance...I've 'taught' shop estimators and owners myself about their own systems and showed them how they were, well shorting themselves!
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Shops did not need guides other than parts price guides.
come on Fred you know this can't work...if there were not time guides, then abc shop would charge 10.0 hours to replace a fender, and def shop would charge two hours!
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If you would, please Print this out and while you are at your local shops show it to their Painter to read and ask them for an Honest "off the record" answer. Then let us all know how many say they can and how many can't.
Ok, Fred I ask the five guys that work in the paint dept of the largest shop that I work in...(this is a big shop, they even have two full time detailers! and that's all they do!)...ok these five guys rotate they are all talented painters, one week some prep and buff, then next paint, etc...all five of them said, if they couldn't get that blend done in less than a half hour, it's time for them to stop painting! I'll be in a smaller shop tomorrow only one painter and one prepper in that shop I'll ask them them same question...and let you know what they have to say.









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Before there were manuals or labor guides,
Geeze Fred, no darnit I mean Mike! Sorry Fred! I'll bet you aren't even that old ! Wink I know I'm not....Mitchell crash books came out when?

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DOOR ... Refinish outside panel...... 2.8 -50% for blend panel (??).... becomes 1.4
(I'll play Fred...)



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Can anyone actually do all of this in 1.4 hours?


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Last edited by Lori on Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:08 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:56 pm   Post subject:   

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Now the at fault insurer says the shop analysis of damage and pictures are not sufficient as they have to see the damage with their own eyes and document it. This is ludicrous to say the least
There are no pictures of the rebar! Did you miss the part where the SHOP didn't have the time to look! Geeze Louise I don't honestly see the problem with ANYONE or ANY COMPANY wanting to see and make sure a part is truly damaged BEFORE they pay to replace it! Man, I'd love for one of you guys to hit my mom's big ole lincoln in the rear end, then for me to demand a complete rear bumper assy and how about replacing the rear body panel while we're at it..all out of your own pocke mind you...but no, no need in tear down, shoot you don't even need to see it I'll just phone it in to you.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:46 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Note: keep in mind that an blend panel is not New out of the Box, (it can't be) its a dirty used door attached to the automobile anywhere from a few days to 10 years ago.
I started to actually enter this into Audatex but then read the above comment. The paint time is based on a part in good, ready to use condition. If a salvage part is being used, the agreement with the salvor is that the part is in this type of condition. I recently toured one of these yards and it's _not_ like what people expect a junk yard too look like! They had 2-3 airplane hangers filled with removed parts. The parts were all in great condition and hanging on racks up to the ceiling.



The salvors price is based on a part, in good condition, ready to use. If it's not, the repair shop can call the salvor and the salvor should agree to refund part of the price to compensate for the extra work needed. many times the shop calls the insurance company/appraisal and the appraiser will allow extra time (the shop might even double dip from both parties).



I'm not the greatest at writing appraisals. Let me say that 1st. But if we are just blending the door (to match the surrounding replaced part), why are you saying the door is off of another vehicle? If the door is being replaced, it's not being blended, it's being refinished. Am I missing something?



I have the refinish time on a door as 4.2 hours. I have the blend time as 1.6 hours.



Edit: Forgot about the DPR thing... I think Lori mentioned this. I don't work for a carrier that uses DRP's. So no, it was not based on this.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:53 pm   Post subject:   

I think his point is that most programs give you 1/2 the (outter) refinish time for blend time...and you are blending an undamaged but not new panel, meaning he has to clean/prep it as you would a salvaged door...the blended door is a used door.....the one that came on the truck. BUT he's not having to preform any 'cleanup' like he would if he purchased a used door to use in a repair, he is only blending it...



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:02 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:




Quote:

If you would, please Print this out and while you are at your local shops show it to their Painter to read and ask them for an Honest "off the record" answer. Then let us all know how many say they can and how many can't.

Ok, Fred I ask the five guys that work in the paint dept of the largest shop that I work in...(this is a big shop, they even have two full time detailers! and that's all they do!)...ok these five guys rotate they are all talented painters, one week some prep and buff, then next paint, etc...all five of them said, if they couldn't get that blend done in less than a half hour, it's time for them to stop painting! I'll be in a smaller shop tomorrow only one painter and one prepper in that shop I'll ask them them same question...and let you know what they have to say




Lori,



Get Real..!!



If 5 out of 5 say they can:



1 Clean that entire Door with solvent and detergent wash it.

2 Wet-sand that entire Door. keep in mind that this particular door has a seamless framework around the entire window all the way to the roof and back

3 Clean this entire door again in preparation for material applications

4 Mask All the way around this entire Door's adjacent panels (3ft. perimeter)

5 Mix & Spray Bonding/adhesive coat.

6 Mix & Spray the multiple step-Blending color coats across this door.

7 Mix & Spray Clear coat on this entire door (2 coats minimum)

8 Remove masking



in 29 minuets or less... (less than .5) on a 14 year old Dodge truck door...



well.... either they didn't understand my scenario/question or you just call and ask if they could "Spray Paint" on that door in 1.4 hours.



*If* that's what you did, then sure.... the actual time standing by the door and spraying the various materials is about 40 seconds per coat. which would be about 4 minuets. AND YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT..!



What eats up the hours is all the meticulous details of preparing that door to be Painted.



Think about it.. One would have more than half an hour just doing the wet-sanding.



(This same time also applies to a 1994 full size Dodge pickup)





FK,



PS, you need to go back and re-read my Posts. You put my name on many of Mike's comments.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:07 pm   Post subject:   

Fred I'll have to admit, all I said was a full size dodge p/u door...I didn't go into the particulars of the year etc...I'll do that tomorrow...I did'nt realize your point was it's age...

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AND YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT..!
and I did.. Rolling Eyes
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What eats up the hours is all the meticulous details of preparing that door to be Painted.
I agree, it's mostly in the prep.
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PS, you need to go back and re-read my Posts. You put my name on many of Mike's comments.
Rolling Eyes I know what a moron move on my part, I'll go back and change it I just caught that...thanks fred.. Wink


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:58 am   Post subject:   

Appreciate all the comments, but why can't I get any info/feedback on diminished value?

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:17 am   Post subject:   

Well I told you if you aren't repairing the vehicle then you don't even have the possiblity of it to begin with...and on a vehicle of this age, I sincerely doubt there would be any....of course there is diminished value if you don't repair it....but the insurance company is paying you to repair it right?



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:55 am   Post subject:   

I think the situation of wanting to "cash-out" is the problem you're finding in determining the actual cost to repair. You will not know the exact cost to repair the vehicle unless.....you repair the vehicle. All shops have different prices, just as each insurance company uses different software. In the end, everyone will see it different.



As for "diminished value", you cannot determine the amount the vehicle's value has been diminished by having an accident and being repaired, if the vehicle has not been repaired. If you try and sell a wrecked car, you're not going to get as much as an unwrecked car, period.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:55 am   Post subject:   

Thanks MB my point exactly...



Fred, checked with the painters again, also with two different shops that are a lot smaller....all rolled their eyes, and said, thirty minutes tops....



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 4:50 pm   Post subject: I believe the following quote to be innacurate.  

Code:
As for "diminished value", you cannot determine the amount the vehicle's value has been diminished by having an accident and being repaired, if the vehicle has not been repaired. If you try and sell a wrecked car, you're not going to get as much as an unwrecked car, period.




You can calculate the loss in value simply by subtracting the cost the insurer pays for damages whether you fix the car or not; subtract the salvage value or trade in value from the pre-loss value. The difference in what you would have gotten for trade in value if it did not have the accident history, or the difference of the salvage value from the non repaired vehicle would be your loss in value or diminishment of value. It really a very simple calculaton called subtraction.



Insurers would like you to believe that diminishment of value does not exist. But they do pay for it. Take for example this definition included in the Missouri Department of Insurance helpful information site. It may suffice as proof for some but not all.



Code:
Diminished value is the difference in fair market value of the auto immediately before the accident and the auto

immediately after the accident causing the damage. Diminished value may or may not be recoverable under an

auto accident claim depending on the relationship between the injured party and the insurance company.




Code:
If you make a claim under someone else's policy (e.g. your auto is damaged because someone else hit you),

Missouri courts have included diminished value as recoverable damages - Rook V. John F. Oliver Trucking

Company, 566 S.W.2d 200 (Mo. App. 1977). In this case, the court said the amount of damage should be

measured from the fair market value immediately before the collision and the fair market value immediately

after the collision. However, if repairs have been made to the auto as a result of the accident, the court said

that the dimished value should be the difference between the fair market value immediately before the collision

and the fair market value after the repairs.




I believe the above quote makes a distinction as to whether the vehicle has been repaired or not as to how the definition applies, but the fact is diminishment occurs wether you repair or whether you do not.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:21 pm   Post subject:   

Diminished value is interpretted differently by State. Also, it's an area noone can seem to agree on. The reason being, it's based on an assumption.



Some say the value has diminished at the time of the accident, and should be paid then.



Others say it cannot be determined until it is sold.



To pay diminished value at the time of the accident is saying IF you sold it now, you would lose X amount of money, so we'll pay you now. That insured drives if or another 5 years and the value they have lost is much lower at that time. Therefore, the insurance carrier had to pay someone an amount they may not have been entitled to.



I repeatedly get the complaint about insurance rates always going up, but they will continue going up as long as the carriers are forced to payout money that may not be due to someone.



I am always ready to take the side of a consumer, since inevitably, I pay insurance premiums and am a consumer too.



The problem is, we can argue diminished value all day and everyone will be right to some extent. The OP really needs to speak with someone about how their state handles diminished value.



I, as a consumer, would be upset to see someone collect on diminished value if they did not even fix the car. And beleive me, I used to hate insurance companies before working in the industry and having helped many people myself.



Here is a site that shows even body shops are at odds on the diminished value of vehicles.



http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/sept97/value.htm

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:56 pm   Post subject:   

DV- Whether you believe in DV or notÂ…. lets say you do. What is the value of a 24 year old Toyota? A grand maybe 2, unless its lined in gold or had been bedazzled. No offense, but a 24 year old Toyota. I just don't see a DV claim going very far. Lets say your state allows DV claims, what are you look for (money).

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