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 Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: Here is news you can really use nailbiter! |
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Some here may disagree, but you are most likely entitled to loss of value due to the negligence of the at fault party. Diminishment of value has been written out of first party policies or your insurance, but it can be collected if you can prove the loss in value.
Twenty thousand dollars in damage on a low mileage new truck would easily top ten thousand dollars in loss of value. I'll bet you might persuade the insurer to total your vehicle if they know you intend to pursue the additional loss owed to you. You are owed all damages. You are not bound by the contract of the party that was negligent. If they added up the cost of repairs, your rental expense or loss of use of your truck, and the loss in value, it will easily run over thirty thousand dollars.
A wise adjuster would pay your claim and sell the truck for salvage and only be out approximately twenty thousand dollars. But if you get an obstinate appraiser that does not believe you are entitled to loss in value, they will probably cost their company an additional ten to twelve thousand dollars that they would not have had to pay if they simply totaled it.
Google DV diminishment of value, loss of value, diminished value and you will find a multitude of people that can help you with more information. The "Make Whole Doctrine" says that you have to be placed in as good a position you held prior to the loss. What ever that takes are your damages.
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MikeoftheOzarks
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
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tcope-
Thanks for your advice and support. Like you said, I "might" get offered more than we're guessing, and I'll be fine. Then all my anxiety was for nothing, but its how I'm wired....Plan for the worst, and be prepared.
Has anyone ever used any of those online "Get the most for your totaled car" pay websites? If so, is there really any useful info that I cant get for free here or on other sites? |
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nailbiter
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | A wise adjuster would pay your claim and sell the truck for salvage and only be out approximately twenty thousand dollars. |
I hope you're right Mike!
The more I read, the less I know....
Lets say they total it and I cant get them to agree to a settlement I think is reasonable. Will my own Insurance Co (State Farm) be able to do better for me? |
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nailbiter
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| You can go through both your carrier and the other parties carrier and see who gives you the better price. They should however be close. I think this is no brainer that it is a total loss. If not economic, then at least structural. I wouldn't really worry about it, they just want one of their people to eyeball it for the amount of money they are looking at. |
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Dasfuk
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: |
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Anyone know why NADA shows my truck value as N/A?
07 Tundra DoubleCab ShortBox SR5 5.7L 4x4
Too new? |
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nailbiter
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: check out edmunds.com for appraising your vehicle |
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I was able to pull up your vehicle on edmunds.com and came up with a figure of 30,300 based on some of your information. You may have additional factory options that could increase the value. I didn't even add your topper or allow for your bedliner.
As far as comparing state farm to Progressive, I'll just say there is a reason you can buy insurance cheaper from Progressive and leave it at that. There is also a reason why they are experiencing no new growth in auto coverage or retention and consumers are not happy with their conceirge service. Yes I have documentation to back that up. What ever you do, do not let them take control or possession of your vehicle. If they offer to move it to a storage free facility, make them sign something that they will tow it back to you and charge no storage if you can not reach an agreement with them.
You most likely will find adjusters to be more experienced with state farm and some may even have collision experience. Many Progressive appraisers I have encourntered are sorely lacking in any collision in depth training or experience.
I'd put Progressive on a short leash and likely take my options with my own company if it was state farm. This of course is my opinion; I have operated a collision repair business for 27 years.
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MikeoftheOzarks
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Some here may disagree, but you are most likely entitled to loss of value due to the negligence of the at fault party. Diminishment of value has been written out of first party policies or your insurance, but it can be collected if you can prove the loss in value. |
Not if it's totaled Mike, and I already agreed and advised the OP if it is repairable to look for a diminished value claim, and that if it comes to that (repairable) let us know and we would assist with that, I also told OP to tell the adjuster this from the get go.......(ok for you to tell her too of course, just pointing out that we agree on that point regarding this claim and this vehicle) | Quote: | | Lets say they total it and I cant get them to agree to a settlement I think is reasonable. Will my own Insurance Co (State Farm) be able to do better for me? |
Perhaps, and this is always an avenue that you can pursue. As Dasfuk stated, many times people will request that their own carrier also appraise the damage, and evalutate the ACV and 'take' the one that offers the most....nothing wrong with this (IMO)....your company would then subro the other ..... | Quote: | Anyone know why NADA shows my truck value as N/A? 07 Tundra DoubleCab ShortBox SR5 5.7L 4x4
Too new |
yeah, for the nada program you were using, NADA is what I used to get the value I supplied you with. | Quote: | | As far as comparing state farm to Progressive |
where is that at in this thread? did I miss that? I saw the OP's friend is an adjuster at Progressive is all...  | Quote: | | You most likely will find adjusters to be more experienced with state farm and some may even have collision experience. Many Progressive appraisers I have encourntered are sorely lacking in any collision in depth training or experience. |
First of all I don't see where it is said ANYWHERE in this thread that progressive is handling this claim! So why are we bashing progressive?...and second of all OP, as you know in life there are good and bad every where, I'd see how my adjuster was doing then make this decision, if you come to a brick wall, or find your adjuster hard to deal with go to your own carrier ...and thirdly and probably most important, I don't think progressive even sells garage liability, which is what this claim is being handled under, (I would assume)...wow, mike where did all this progressive talk/bashing come from in this thread?
Dasfuk, makes a good point here in this statement | Quote: | | I think this is no brainer that it is a total loss. If not economic, then at least structural |
and I agree, but I forgot there are a few states that REQUIRE a vehicle total if there is complete frame replacement....I'll review the thread to see if your state is listed, if not please drop it in here and then see if I can find out if your state is one of those...
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Lori
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
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NB, I just thought of something that I want to clarify...when I valued your vehicle that included 975.00 (total) for the bedliner and cap...so if the adjuster gives you the 2200, for that, you would need to subtract that 975 from the ACV I provided....if you add the 2200 to the ACV that I came up with you'd be getting paid twice for that....(not that what I say really matters!  )...just wanted to clarify.
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Lori
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: Sorry for the misinformation |
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Naibiter, I commend you for taking the time to research and educate yourself so that you can make an informed decision and know what is owed to you, so you can negotiate your loss from the perspective of what you are entitled. Knowledge is power!
You will probably take a hit for the depreciation of the vehicle being a few months old and with mileage on it. That should be expected, but I would look for comparable vehicles online to verify your values and what it would take to purchase one with comparable options and features to put you in a position you had before the damage occured. Don't rely on subjective values and arbitrary ideas that a vehicle loses a certain value from titling and being driven off a lot.
While there is good, actually excellent reason to bash Progressive, I was mistaken in that this was the company that was responsible. I am sorry, in this one case for the misinformation. Actually you could insert several companies into that slot based on my years of experience in knowing some companies that are forthright in offering settlements and those that are not.
While I think most of the information you get here is designed to inform and help you (NB) make an informed decision, I personally feel you should have the perspective of at least one collision repairer's benefit of experience of more than 35 years in the trade and over 27 years in business and helping customers with information that helps them obtain higher settlement offers on total losses.
An insurance adjuster's job is not to be fair to you, their job is to settle your loss on their terms based on the criteria that their company maintains is fair from their perspective. The only legal way to know what you are owed in damages is litigation, arbitration, appraisal, or a disinterested and unbiased third party expert. Most, but not all, resort to a "take it or leave" offer or "why don't you use your own coverage" if you do not agree to their offer. They play on your emotions and desperation giving you artificial timelines to make decisions. He who holds the gold holds the power seems to be a motto that too many adhere too.
Just yesterday, and I won't mention the name of the company because it seems that some think I take delite in bashing them, told a third party claimant, "All we owe you is what you should be able to negotiate with a dealer for the price of a vehicle if there was one available." geesh give me a break.
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MikeoftheOzarks
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I won't mention the name of the company because it seems that some think I take delite in bashing them |
Come on Mike be fair you do! Find me one post you've made that didn't bash some insurance company! | Quote: | | "All we owe you is what you should be able to negotiate with a dealer for the price of a vehicle if there was one available." geesh give me a break.___ |
Well Mike what is the owner of a total loss owed, if not the cost they could buy that vehicle for? Is that not EXACTLY what you just told the OP a few paragraphs up? | Quote: | | I would look for comparable vehicles online to verify your values and what it would take to purchase one with comparable options and features to put you in a position you had before the damage occured |
geeeeeeeeeeeeze to you too!  (that was a joke)
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Lori
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:31 am Post subject: Painting with a pretty wide brush their Lori |
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Notice I didn't say broad brush. I think I have been able to post alternative points of view and backed them up with resources.
If I offer advice counter to yours and from a different perspective, I am bashing? I have posted comments that fraudulent shops that steal from insurers and consumers should be prosecuted..Did you miss that one?
[quote]" | Quote: | | All we owe you is what you should be able to negotiate with a dealer for the price of a vehicle if there was one available." geesh give me a break.___ |
Well Mike what is the owner of a total loss owed, if not the cost they could buy that vehicle for? Is that not EXACTLY what you just told the OP a few paragraphs up?
What an insurer owes a policy holder or third party claimant is AT LEAST the fair market value of a like, kind, and quality vehicle. A person shouldn't have to negotiate for less than fairmarket value.
The definition of Fair Market Value:
| Quote: | Fair Market Value (FMV) is a term in both law and accounting that is based on the economics term of "market value." It is also a common basis for assessing damages to be awarded for the loss of or damage to the property, generally in a claim under tort or a contract of insurance.
A fair market value is often an estimate of what a willing buyer would pay to a willing seller, both in a free market, for an asset or any piece of property. If such a transaction actually occurs, then the actual transaction price is usually the fair market value. Note that the opinion of people that are not interested in buying or selling an asset has little meaning, because they are not active in the market. Thus, "market value" (which is the same for everyone in the market) is not identical to the "intrinsic value" that different individuals may place on the same asset based on their own preferences and circumstances.
However, market transactions are often not observable for assets such as privately-held businesses and most personal and real property. Thus, FMV must be estimated. An estimate of Fair Market Value is usually subjective due to the circumstances of place, time, the existence of comparable precedents, and the evaluation principles of each involved person. Opinions on value are always based upon subjective interpretation of available information at the time of assessment. This is in contrast to an imposed value, in which a legal authority (law, tax regulation, court, etc.) sets an absolute value upon a product or a service. |
This definition doesn't sound like it requires the buyer to negotiate for a price less than the fair market value because they should have the negotiating skill the adjuster I mentioned suggested.
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MikeoftheOzarks
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: |
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Thanks again for all your advice folks!
At what point is their Insurance Co legally able to stop providing a loaner for me? Can they stop after their first offer even if I dont accept, or are they required to provide it until we reach an agreement? |
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nailbiter
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: Depends |
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I've seen companies shut down the rental or use it to force someone to make a panic decision. I see this a lot as a negotiationg tactic.
I would say until you have negotiable funds you are entitled to a rental. If you have an insurance draft that the funds will not be placed into your account until 5 days after a deposit doesn't leave you with the ability to replace your lost vehicle til those funds are can be used.
Some of it will depend upon your lein being satisfied.
I've seen some companies cut the rental once an offer has been extended.
I've seen some companies cut the rental once you have in your possession an offer in writing detailing the entirety of the claim settlement and how your total loss was calculated.
I have seen others extend a rental for a week after the settlement.
I wouldn't take advice from the ones who owe you money, I would consult with an attorney on that one.
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MikeoftheOzarks
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| It really depends on the state that you are in and if there is any statutes in place for such. I would normally pull it or tell someone I was pulling the rental with in 3 days if a total loss offer that was fair and backed by solid documentation was made and either rejected or I received no response. If an agreement was made, I usually let them keep it for a day or two after I delivered the check and obtained the release (really depended on the claimant). The only time I had problems with this is when the car that was totaled was a piece of junk and the claimant was happy driving around in a nice rental. I would just check with your DOI and start looking for a car so you are ready when the settlement is reached. If you are reasonable, most adjusters will be reasonable. |
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Dasfuk
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I would say until you have negotiable funds you are entitled to a rental. |
You would be incorrect Mike.... | Quote: | | I wouldn't take advice from the ones who owe you money, I would consult with an attorney on that one |
Sure and pay the attorney two hundred bucks to tell you something you can find out for free! You could contact your states Dept of insurance comsumer line, or look on their web site, and see if the information is there...or you could ask your local body shop owner... | Quote: | | Some of it will depend upon your lein being satisfied. |
I have NEVER in twenty three years seen your lein satisfaction have anything what so ever to do with rental...they will of course get a guarantee of title release from your lein holder, and they will pay them, but nothing at all to do with the rental...
Dasfuk, great contribution.
RE: fair market value...I think we are playing symatics here...when a market survey is done, what is asked when contacting dealers is what is the 'take' price...which is what is owed, what you can purchase the vehicle for...we aren't talking about a whole days worth of negotiations here...just 'hey car dealer dan, how much would you 'take' for that 07 tundra you have on your lot, that you are asking 5 ga-zillion dollars for? 29k? ok thanks...'' that's what you are owed...fyi, most of the time the ACV as it is determined using NADA or another evaluation method is higher than what you can actually purchase a like kind vehicle for...so if you get to that point of disagreement would be wise to do a market survey yourself before you insist upon one by the adjuster, more times than not these back fire, meaning the settlement is less...
| Quote: | | If I offer advice counter to yours and from a different perspective, I am bashing? |
Absolutely not, but when bash a huge company based solely on your contempt for insurance carriers I don't see how that is productive, in this case Progressive had ZERO to do with this thread! And had you read the entire thread you would've known that but you made sure you got it in here I'll give you that!
| Quote: | | At what point is their Insurance Co legally able to stop providing a loaner for me? Can they stop after their first offer even if I dont accept, or are they required to provide it until we reach an agreement? |
Well yes they can in many instances...the company I work for will authorize 72 hours after an offer of settlement notice I didn't say exceptance....this is somewhat negotable in most companies (an extra day or two)...do you have rental or rental reimbursement on your own policy? Before you worry, you could check but I've never seen a state that allows a rate increase for using this coverage, and not sure what the time limit would be using your own rental if you even could to be honest...but I think it bares checking on....I know it doesn't seem fair (the 72hrs) and it's not in some cases....but there has to be a cut of or people would stay in rental forever (trust me) another thing is you aren't dealing with an auto policy here you are dealing with a garage liablity (or some type of business liablity) and they maynot have such a 'rule' or actually handle that many total loss vehicle claims (we are still only under the assumption your vehicle is totaled)....
| Quote: | | Thanks again for all your advice folks! |
Nailbiter you are welcome, please do continue to keep us updated, and let us know if we can be of any further assistance to you....
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Lori
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