It does not mean the initial appraisal was intentionally lowered.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:38 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
There was a study conducted by a collision repair group that took insurer estimates and compared them to final bills.
It's really hard to address comments like this when it's just that... a comment. I'm betting if I took a group of body shop owners and asked them if they felt underpaid, 100% would say as well. But the real theme of your post is that the insurance companies initial appraisals are almost always deficient. I have no problem with that statement whatsoever. It's probably true 90% of the time. But the _real_ question is -WHY- it's deficient and what is the -END- result. Almost all of the time they are deficient because there is no reason for the insurance company to guess as to what hidden damages exist. If customers walk into a body shop where they are paying the bill, they don't want to get an estimate for $500 and walk out with a bill for $1000. So shops take educated guesses on what needs to be done. Bottom line, an insurance has no need whatsoever to make these guesses. They write up what they see/know, issue the payment and then wait for a supplement. Mike, I'm sure you know supplements are paid each and every day by insurance companies. It does not mean the initial appraisal was intentionally lowered.



Quote:
The only reason a company appraiser should be allowed to inspect the vehicle is because the policy requires that they be allowed to inspect the damage.
Or perhaps because they have no obligation to pay what one particular shop is going to charge? See, it works both ways. Insurance companies could ignore shops all together, just like your saying body shops should ignore the insurance company. At the end of the day, the how process comes to a halt. Thing is, insurance companies _do_ work _with_ body shops to make sure the process is as smooth as it can be.



Are you also saying that many body shops don't over charge on repairs? I think I'd be happy if you finally answered that question.



Examples... I inspected a SUV last week that had a dented lift gate. The shop wrote up replacement of 4 emblems. They were not damaged in any way. As I understand, sometimes the emblems cannot be reused. But until they are taken off, who knows? I guess the shop wrote them up just in case... but do you think they would have R/I'ed them and lowered their bill is they _could_ have been reused? Of course not. They would have put knew emblems on anyway. Now I wrote it up as RI... this was so the shop would try to reuse them if they could. If not, they just call me to let me know and I'd pay for new emblems. That is me, trying to keep the cost to what it _should_ be (as low as possible), still allowing the body shop to make the correct repairs, possibly creating a statistic that the insurance companies initial appraisal was too low, and keeping the body shop more honest. BTW - there were only 3 emblems on that lift gate, not 4. Also, the shop charged $40 labor and I pay $42. Some shops want $44. I pay $42. The shops that charge $44... they have a _choice_ (same as you and any body shop)... they can lowered their rate to the average of they can tell the customer they cannot do the work. Which gets me to my last point...



You say the insurance should not interfere with the body shops work. That is an easy statement to make... as long as all body shops are 100% honest and fair. Now go back and re-read that. Now... just one more time, re-read that. You think that is true? Just like insurance companies in some cases don't operate the best that they should, neither do body shops. Your posts indicate that all (I could even say most) body shops are 100% correct all the time and 100% honest and up front. If they were, I'd agree with _everything_ you've posted. But sadly... this is simply not the case. It's also not the case that OEM's charge a reasonable price for their parts. As I've said, without AM parts being _available_, OEM parts would cost twice as much (proven). You've also never answered by question as to if you want all carriers to only use OEM parts and have your insurance rates doubled. Everyone wants to eat their cake but no one wants to pay for it.



Let me just add a few comments... I'm mentioned before that the carrier I work for does not use AM parts. We do use PXN parts (for others, that's Parts Exchange New parts). I've saved my carrier a _lot_ of money just using those parts! I'm also sure a _small_ portion of that savings goes on to lower premiums. Why did those shops not even look for PXN parts? They _are_ OEM parts. Am I wrong in using those parts? I've not seen any argument against them yet. If it's okay to use these quality parts can I take the same stance and say that the body shops are just trying to rip people off by charging too much? That would be as much a blanket statement as your about insurance companies undercutting body shop bills. My main point is that this is not a perfect world. There are concessions made in _every_ business where two bodies have to work together. If one of those bodies does not want to work with the other, no one is forcing them... so they should have no complaints. It almost reminds me of complaints against Walmart in that they _demand_ lower prices from manufactures. Manufactures complain about this. Hmmmm, then don't sell to Walmart. So no problem really exists. You say Walmart controls the market? Then the consumers must like to buy from Walmart. Same thing with insurance companies. Insurance companies _do_ try to keep expenses down. Some times they get too aggressive. But it's not always the insurance companies fault. They are many other "hands stirring the pot". It's up to the insurance company to keep those people honest. They only way they can do this is by controlling the money being paid. Sometimes that will rub some people the wrong way. But to not look at the big picture is simply, wrong.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:19 pm   Post subject: The study was done, I have a copy.  

Would you like me to post the study here, or email it to you. It was a study conducted by the CIC. Collision Industry Conference made up of the collision industry and the insurance industry. The study is available but was not allowed to be officially entered into the conference because of insurance industry demands.



The prevailing competitive rate is 45.00 in my locality and I consider that appalling and at least 20.00 low. If shops knew how to job cost and know their true cost of doing business and reasonable profit margins built in, the prevailing rate would be 65 to 85 comparable to mechanic's rates or diesel truck rates.



If all shops truly charged what we consider reasonable for our labor, your employers would claim price fixing and collusion. You say you only pay what we ask for based on surveys, so if everyone raised their price to 65 per hour and we decided we wanted 35 percent markup on lkq parts which would only be a 25 percent profit margin that we typically receive on new or a/m parts, you would pay, because the survey results would reveal that rate. Yeah, when pigs fly!



In truth, drp shops are afraid to ask for price increase and told they will be removed from drp programs if they ask. They shouldn't even have to ask, but they made that choice by signing an agreement. I as an independent should not have to work for the same concession wages paid to drps. Court cases recently have revealed that insurers could be held to pay a higher rate unless they could prove that the charge for the labor was unreasonable just because it was higher than a prevailing rate in an area.



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:00 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
The prevailing competitive rate is 45.00 in my locality and I consider that appalling and at least 20.00 low.
WOW! Are you kidding me? Based on what? A 100% profit margin? What are you paying your techs Mike? Is that 20buck an hour going to them?
Quote:
As I've said, without AM parts being _available_, OEM parts would cost twice as much (proven).
Absolutely correct tcope, as I posted before, in the past year ALL US OEM parts vendors (GM, FORD, CHRYS ETC,) in my area are 'miraculously' matching the a/m parts! Explain that to me! I have a new oem cover for a list price of 200 buck, and a/m or reman for 125.00 ''some how'' the new oem vendor will match that a/m part price for the shops! Now we all know damn good and well they ain't taking a loss on any of their parts! So what is the hugely over inflated profit margin? They have been forced to charge a reasonable price/profit to sell their parts...Why aren't you mad at the OEM parts vendors for ripping you and the public and the ins carriers off all of these years?
Quote:
Collision Industry Conference made up of the collision industry and the insurance industry. The study is available but was not allowed to be officially entered into the conference because of insurance industry demands
Come on the ins industry is now telling the CIC what they can and cannot show/discuss in one of 'their' conferences? I'm sorry, THAT'S what I want to see even more than the study.....
Quote:
You say you only pay what we ask for based on surveys, so if everyone raised their price to 65 per hour and we decided we wanted 35 percent markup on lkq parts which would only be a 25 percent profit margin that we typically receive on new or a/m parts, you would pay, because the survey results would reveal that rate. Yeah, when pigs fly!
That's exactly what I'm saying. If the prevailing rate and markup were consistant. You can't just pull figures out of the air and think you're worth that....I think I'm worth about 150bucks an hour too Mike, but I only get about 28.00. What other repair industry makes (routinely) over 25% markup on parts?
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In truth, drp shops are afraid to ask for price increase and told they will be removed from drp programs if they ask.
NOT TRUE NOT TRUE NOT TRUE! And how would you know anyway since you are not one. As a matter of fact, my largest shop just ask me last week when I thought another rate increase would be forthcoming (been about a year or so since the last one). I said, 'you know what I don't know let me find out' and I did! There will be a survey began this week. If that survey calls for an increase there will be one! I have not one shop I handle (i have seven presently) that is 'afraid' of anything with me or my company. We all have a terrific relationship based on our mutal customer. I'm sorry Mike but this was just an overly dramatic statement.
Quote:
drp shops are afraid to ask for price increase and told they will be removed from drp programs
You prove to me one program or company that has instilled such great fear in the hearts of a shop that they won't even bring up the subject! geeeeeeze..... Rolling Eyes
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I as an independent should not have to work for the same concession wages paid to drps.
You are correct then don't...and it's not the same concessions or rates as drp shops it's the prevailing rate in the area, of ALL SHOPS....
Quote:
There was a study conducted by a collision repair group that took insurer estimates and compared them to final bills.
I don't need a study to believe this anyway, I'm sure it's true, if a vehicle isn't completely torn down, then you will not see the damage, many owners as you know especially if a vehicle is driveable will not want it rendered non-driveable for an inspection. As tcope stated and he is of course 100% correct the final anaylsis is the question...once the vehicle is in the shop and torn down then the adjuster comes back and writes and PAYS the supplement. what on earth is wrong with that? Is the end result not the same? What kind of a moronic person/company is going to write to replace a rear body panel because a bumper cover is shoved in if they can't see it? You and I both know, maybe it's not damaged at all, maybe it's creamed, maybe it can be repaired....Are you saying that these field inspections should just guess on the 'high' side? And hope that the owner or shop will reimburse them the over payment? THAT my friend is a joke and you know it.



The fact is like it or not, there are some insurance companies out there that are practicing bad claims handling, and there are some theiving shops as well. Neither are in the majority. The other fact is that MOST OF THE TIME, insurance companies/adjusters and shops get along just great, and come together to repair the vehicle the way 'it should be repaired'. Regardless of the ascertians made here. It is rare (in my 22 years working 'both sides') that a mutual agreement cannot be reached with the customer's interest at heart and in the for-front.



I don't understand though Mike why you fail to want to 'help' rather than 'hender' the situation. You have some valid points and I'll give you that, but it appears that you have zero desire to aid our 'mutal customer' instead everything the shop's do is right and the carriers are 100% wrong and the problem. Why is there no 'coalition' with the customer satisfaction truly at the heart of it? It appears rather that the bank accounts of the shops are the real motivator. Why not start some coalition to police your own industry. Why not put some effort into cleaning up the mess in your own industry? I'm serious, the 'bad' shops have hurt you way more than the insurance industry. Who is watching out for the poor consumer, regarding the shops? Who is making sure they are doing the right thing by the consumer? We have one ! DOI, to name one big one! Surely if your industry could remove their own black eyes, and clean up their own back yards, and all shops were run like yours there would be more credibility given to the shop's view/agenda. You and I both know I could fill this forum with shop horror stories and 'studys'. Just a thought, that 'some' of the energy spent on trashing the insurance industry could be well spent cleaning your own house.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:10 pm   Post subject: I am sorry Lori, I misjudged you! You are ill informed  

You operate in a very closed minded environment, you only know what your supervisors and trade journal authors want you to know. You do not operate a shop and you have no idea of what it takes financially to run a shop. Your industry has no business in my industry's business just because we have mutual customer. Just the same, I as a shop owner have no business in the settling or negotiating claims on behalf of consumers without being licensed as adjusters or by having a law degree. What I do have is a right to do is to conduct my business and determine my profits without your industrys heavy hand of suppression.



You evidently do not read my industry's trade magazines and do not have grasp on the severity of the impact of the impending financial future failures because collision people in my industry are just now beginning to realize the insurance companies are not our friends or partners. It's all about corporate financial gain for insurers and control of the consumer at the expense of the collision shop owner and technicians.



The fact is, that people are just beginning to realize the detriment they face when they allow the insurer to make repair decisions based on cost, much like physicians have come to realize. Manipulation of the collision industry and medical profession is all about controlling costs for the benefit of corporate coffers



It's laughable. shops nudge their labor rates up one or two dollars an hour and wait for the insurance industry to flinch in hopes they do not upset the applecart. The cost of supplies and materials have risen over 25 percent in four years and the average formula of hours times dollars to calculate compensation for those supplies and paint has not kept pace. The cost of these materials rises 7 to 10 percent annually and compensated rates are adjusted about ten percent bi annually.



The oem's are not stupid but they may be greedy. They will allow their sheetmetal, grilles and lamps to be copycated and fraudently passed off as equivalent to oem. They are happy to deplete their shelves and warehouses of sheetmetal that takes up space and investment by matching a/m pricing. When you can charge one thousand dollars for a sliding door that takes no more technology than making a hood that is sold for 350.00, it's smart business to make more on less. Why else would a hinge for half an upper or lower door cost 135.00 or a plastic moulding cost 300.00.



Shop owners are not even allowed to charge a surcharge for fuel prices for heating and electricity, but your average garbage truck business can add such a charge monthly. We're told that's overhead, just absorb it into your cost of business.



Lori, two business trade magazines you probably have never turned one page on have been reporting on the dwindling profits of shops and the demize of the promised beneficial relationship of drps and insurers have turned sour.



Need we even mention Allstate again and threatening to pull their good hands out of Florida, and how most major insurers treated policy holders in the gulf region. A lot of major insurers have an image problem with people as well as some shoddy body shop businesses. But that's okay, insurers can aborb that cost and run to the DOI for an increase in rates.



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:14 pm   Post subject:   

Since this site is to provide information for consumers. I hope any consumer who read's this topic will think twice after they listen to the song and dance from their insurer about how they should use the insured's recommended shop. Every person who owns a vehicle should research and find a body shop that does good work and has a good reputation. Just like people have their favorite stores. They should have a shop they like and use that shop every time they need work done. It is the consumers choice to have their vehicle repaired where ever they want. If you have a accident and want your car to be fixed properly find a shop that has a good reputation, and goes by their own estimates. A good shop will disregard the estimate written by a insurer and write there own accurate estimate and explain the whole estimate to you and why they wrote what they wrote. Do not let your insurer force you to use their DRP shop. Choose your own shop you feel comfortable with.

Every topic Mike has mentioned on here is true. Any shop will agree on this. A insurer wants to fix your car as fast and as cheap as possible. A good body shop wants to fix your car the right way, with the right parts, and do a job they and you will be happy with. Who should you listen to? Please find a shop that you can count on anytime you need them. If you are loyal to them they will be loyal to you. Do some research about the body repair business and you will see everyone in it feels the same way. Most bodyshop websites have consumers forums where you ask questions. The site I go on has some great people that will give you good honest answers.

This post does not need to be quoted and chopped apart by anyone. This is for consumers to read and make their own decision next time they have a accident.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:25 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
The prevailing competitive rate is 45.00 in my locality and I consider that appalling and at least 20.00 low.


Quote:
WOW! Are you kidding me? Based on what? A 100% profit margin? What are you paying your techs Mike? Is that 20buck an hour going to them?




So your saying that shops have no right or reason to charge 65.00? Please explain. Progressive used to raise my rates for no reason at all, but thats ok? Maybe you should go back to managing a shop and see how far that 45.00 a hour goes when your painting panels for 1 hour because of "blend within", and setting up and measuring for 2.5 on a machine that you just paid $60,000 for.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:25 am   Post subject:   

Lori, When I mentioned the bird droppings etching the finish, I didn't mean while a vehicl was being painted, I meant after the finish has cured. Darker colors are more susceptable to this (I think because they get so much hotter). I'm not talking about "discount brand" finishes either - I've seen it happen to R-M, DuPont, Sikkens and PPG - all modern urethane finishes, not old enamels.





tcope mentioned something about a coalition to "police" the repair industry ... beliee me, they are out there. "Shop Cops", more commonly known as post repair inspectors, routinely discover fraud committed by shops against insurers and consumers alike.



Of course, these same inspectors are the same people that report that generally, the shops doing the worst repairs, and the shops with the highest frequency of problems in the repairs, are most often DRP shops.





Again I am not a shop owner, but I have always been amazed at the disparity between the labor rates of a body shop vs a mechanical shop.



The body shop tech has the same hand tools, and more (da's, airboards, grinders, paint guns, etc.). Both facilities hav air conditioning equipment, and many of the better-equipped body shops have alignment machines. They also have a $40,000 frame machine and an $80,000 bake booth (which is extremely expensive to heat). Most mechanical shops don't have a welder, while many body shops have two or three.



Both types of service have training, but aside from manufacturer training in dealerships, the mechanical side has little other training (ASE is testing, not training). On the body shop side however, aside from OE training, there is I-CAR, with several dozen courses.



Another difference between the two services is that aside from diagnosing problems, the mechanical side is basically nothing more than changing parts. The body shop side needs a certain level of "talent" to be able to repair a quarter panel (not replace, but straighten).



Health hazards in the collision repair industry outnumber those in the mechanical repair industry. Go to any service department and look at the age of the techinicians working and then compare that to what you see in the body shop. You can often find 50 year old mechanics, but it's fairly rare to see a 50 year old body man still going at it.



With all of this, how is it possible that the labor rate in the body shop is only half of what the mechanical repair industry charges, even though the body shop has almost double the investment across the board ?







Lori, as far as warranties, I am speaking about the panel that was replaced not having a transferrable warranty. I don't know what kind of a vehicle you're driving, but if the manufacturer's warranty isn't transferrable, it might have been built in Taiwan (along with those imitation parts ... LOL - c'mon - that was a joke). Seriously though, I have never seen a manufacturers warranty that didn't transfer.



Regarding the aftermarket parts warranties offered by insurers, I agree - they COULD be beneficial if the consumer was going to keep the vehicle, but not many people these days buy an automobile with the intention of "driving it into the ground".







I (sort of) understand protecting the leinholder, but I still don't understand why payment would be sent to a shop ... well, I understand it's a matter of convenience, but I don't understand why anyone would tie a repairer into the benefits that are payable to the contract holder.



If the lessee defaults on the loan, it's nobody's business - not the shop, nor the insurer - that's between the lender and borrower. If the laws state that the insurer must include either the repair facility or the leinholder on the check for coverage, (if I had a shop), I would insist that it's not co-payable to me. If for no other reason than to distance myself from any perception of any wrongdoing by the vehicle owner.



In other words, I will bill the vehicle owner for the work that I did, if they violate some other contract, it would have nothing to do with me.



(and no, you would not get my tax number unless I was fixing one of your fleet vehicles ... but since my rates would reflect the quality of my service, my investments and my desired profit, you wouldn't be hiring me to do the work because you wouldn't want to pay my price)



Lori ... let's not be too silly here - a 7 year old car requiring replacement or refinishing of a bumper cover would either a) sustain no diminishment; or b) sustain such a minimal amount of diminishment that it wouldn't be worth pursuing.



However, take a $170,000 Mercedes-Benz C55 and do $40,000 worth of damage, and you're talking about a substantial loss of value.



Take a two year old Nissan Altima, replace a bumper, bar, quarter, rear body panel and straighten the trunk floor for maybe $6k and you again have a diminishment of value.







Just my nickels worth.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:18 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
You operate in a very closed minded environment, you only know what your supervisors and trade journal authors want you to know. You do not operate a shop and you have no idea of what it takes financially to run a shop
Sorry wrong, wrong and wrong again, I was also the facility manager for the largest body shop in the town I live in for several years. I'm in the unique position to understand both sides of the fence, having worked both sides...So another uninformed statement on your part Mike, not mine.
Quote:
Shop owners are not even allowed to charge a surcharge for fuel prices for heating and electricity, but your average garbage truck business can add such a charge monthly. We're told that's overhead, just absorb it into your cost of business
The garbage trucks (not in my area but I know what you mean) are charging a 'fuel' sur charge Mike...This is ridiculous, when I buy a gallon of milk at the store, I don't pay a sur charge for there light bill either, it's built into the cost of the item as the cost of doing business. I swear you are bound and determined to price yourself right out of buisness. You have the right to do so, but will only get away with it and stay a float if you are the only game in town, too many of your competitiors are more than happy to charge a reasonable charge for their service. I suppose NONE of them can properly repair a vehicle either. We know this isn't correct that yours is not the only shop that is capable of quality work. Again, this is a problem in your own industry, not the insurance one
Quote:
.Need we even mention Allstate again and threatening to pull their good hands out of Florida, and how most major insurers treated policy holders in the gulf region. A lot of major insurers have an image problem with people as well as some shoddy body shop businesses. But that's okay, insurers can aborb that cost and run to the DOI for an increase in rates.
There you go jumping all over again, you and I both know that the Allstate thing and gulf region is a homeowners problem. "Show me" fellow Missourian where it says anything about them pulling the auto line. Could be but I've not heard it.

Quote:
Lori, two business trade magazines you probably have never turned one page on have been reporting on the dwindling profits of shops and the demize of the promised beneficial relationship of drps and insurers have turned sour.
Wrong again Mike as a matter of fact I have three subscription, you really don't want to align yourself with 'some' of them and their tactics do you? To be fair though you don't say which ones, there are some fantastic trade publications. There also are some rags. Not all drps have problems that's the other point I'm trying to get across to you. Because you have no drp's nor can get along with any companies/adjusters doesn't mean that is the majority nor the norm.
Quote:
Every person who owns a vehicle should research and find a body shop that does good work and has a good reputation. Just like people have their favorite stores. They should have a shop they like and use that shop every time they need work done.
I could not agree with you more....I 100% agree that all owners have the choice, and should make an informed one, whether a drp or not...makes zero difference to me, I think they need to have some confidence in the shop they leave their vehicle with....But you seem to be saying fischer that no DRP's are good shops, is that realllllllllllly your stance?
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So your saying that shops have no right or reason to charge 65.00? Please explain
. No I'm not what I'm saying is a 50% increase is crazy, and will never happen..
Quote:
Progressive used to raise my rates for no reason at all, but thats ok?
What's wrong with that? ARe you complaining about that too? They raised them because they did a survey that showed a rate increase was warranted I really don't get your points there....
Quote:
Maybe you should go back to managing a shop and see how far that 45.00 a hour goes when your painting panels for 1 hour because of "blend within",
No thanks, I've done them both and I know which one is easier! Wink keeping track of one set of rules is way easier than 12! Not to mention parts.... Rolling Eyes
Quote:
and setting up and measuring for 2.5 on a machine that you just paid $60,000 for
Now see here's where you go way off track....just because that genisus machine cost you 60k that means it takes you more than two and half hours to tie it down and set/hang the targets? No it doesn't and you know it, any decent tech can get a moveable car fully set up in under an hour and half, and you know that's the truth, most in 45 minutes!...so following your logic until the machine is paid off you should get what 1k per set up? Then again following your logic it should be free once it's paid for then right? That seriously makes zero sense.
Quote:
45.00 a hour goes when your painting panels for 1 hour because of "blend within
I'll side with you on this kind of, you are talking about the wrong rate though mostly....the time is fine, (if true partial is warranty see below) it's the paint and material rate that is all screwed up and screwed up bad...I agree with you 100% on that.....blend within, or partial refinish is a huge problem, and again I agree stupid unless for example a fender just kisses the front edge of a door, then ok, (with the labor time NOT the p&m) other than that I'm on your side about that one! (how about that?)
Quote:
Lori, When I mentioned the bird droppings etching the finish, I didn't mean while a vehicl was being painted, I meant after the finish has cured. Darker colors are more susceptable to this (I think because they get so much hotter). I'm not talking about "discount brand" finishes either - I've seen it happen to R-M, DuPont, Sikkens and PPG - all modern urethane finishes, not old enamels.
I knew exactly what you meant again this shouldn't happen ever and each of the paint suppliers you mention (except I'm not familar with this 'R-M") warrant their paint, dupont for life....This is a quality issue and NOT something that should happen...Now having said that if an owner leaves bird droppings on ANY paint including factory paint for ever you're gonna have a problem, but they way you put it didn't sound like that....(owner neglect)....
Quote:
Both facilities hav air conditioning equipment,
???????? Not where I'm from Alex, I've probably been in hundreds of shops within a 200 mile sweep of my home and know two that's ''2'' that have air conditioning....although I don't get your point about that... Confused I do agree with you that the mechanical and body rates are farther apart than they probably should be the argument as I understand it is in the technical 'know how' mechanics require a lot more training than body techs...Not my opinion before someone gets their undies in a bunch, just the argument for the difference in rates, I have heard...I agree with you re: the health concerns, and the 'finess' required to repair rather than replace. This of course though is not an insurance issue, but within the auto repair industry it's self
Quote:
...Lori ... let's not be too silly here - a 7 year old car requiring replacement or refinishing of a bumper cover would either a) sustain no diminishment; or b) sustain such a minimal amount of diminishment that it wouldn't be worth pursuing
. I wasn't trying to be silly lets make it a two year old car in the same condition I discribed....My point was I don't think anyone could possibly argue that vehicle resulted in an 'increase' in value. Not a diminished one, right?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:57 pm   Post subject: Auto body rates are the same as they were 4 years ago  

Surcharge for heat in the winter and fuel charges are common place in every other industry but our's. We can't charge more for materials or labor but a fuel charge is wrong?? Lori must have some something special in her coffee! We can haggle all day but unless you write the checks for Our real estate, welders, frame machines, epoxies, fasteners, parts, and everything else involved is up over 30% in the last 2 years. Mechanics charge $80.00 to $100.00 an hour and we get $40.00 an hour. They plug in a scan tool or check a circuit and change a bolt on part.



We have to be metalurgists, frame specialists, adhesive experts, metal straighteners, coating specialists, color matching experts and do thier job also. For less than half the pay?? Yeah right we got it made and we are getting fat LOL. How our ROI, compared to the Insurance industry? We are no where near 30%, we are lucky to clear 3%. Invest in training and new technology hardly. Hang on to what we have is more like it.



I am going to work and I do not live in Lori's fantasy land.



I am making less than I did 5 years ago are you??



You may be fair to deal with Lori but the majority of adjusters and Insurance companies suck from my shop owner perspective. I would rather drive a semi than spend any money on new equipment in this industry. Over capacity maybe, cut throat Insurance companies? For sure!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:05 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Post subject: Auto body rates are the same as they were 4 years ago
You're in the wrong area then because in my area they have went up each and every year...------------------------------------------



Quote:
Surcharge for heat in the winter and fuel charges are common place in every other industry but our's
Why don't you name about ten then since ''every'' industry charges for heat and fuel...gezzzzz......The guy that put siding and windows on my house didn't charge me a surcharge to heat his shop, nor did the plumber, when I get the oil or tires changed on my vehicle I don't pay a surcharge for heating the shop, and water to flush the stool...It's called ''OVER HEAD'' and is built into the cost of the job....
Quote:
Mechanics charge $80.00 to $100.00 an hour and we get $40.00 an hour. They plug in a scan tool or check a circuit and change a bolt on part
Good night nurse! That's a no brainer then...Why would you not just 'switch' to being a mechanic since all they do is plug in a scanner and turn a couple of bolts? Why would you not want to double your income? You chose to be a body tech, if there is so little to being a mechanic really I don't understand the problem.....switch! You'll be on easy street within a month...Hell, maybe I will too!
Quote:
Lori must have some something special in her coffee!
Lori gave up the booze years ago, but I must admit doesn't sound like too bad an idea right now.... Wink
Quote:
We have to be metalurgists,
LaughingVery HappyRazz
Quote:
I am going to work and I do not live in Lori's fantasy land.
Lori has to work for a livin' too, not a fantasy land, but I'll grant you clearly a better place than you are in apparently.....

Quote:
I am making less than I did 5 years ago are you??
No I'm not I'm making more than I did 5 years ago, but again i say, dude! become a circuit checking, scanning, bolt turning mechanic! Ok, I'm teasin' ya there, but seriously, why on earth would you stay in a profession that you are losing THAT much money? really! I mean it, become a mechanic! You do understand that the mechanical vs body shop rate has absolutely nothing to do with the insurance industry right? You got that this a problem within the auto repair industry, or do you see this as the insurance companies fault as well?
Quote:
You may be fair to deal with Lori
All kidding and differences of opinion aside, I truly am, and you would be hard pressed to find even one shop owner, manager or tech within 200 miles of my home that would say differently... I'm not bragging, I'm just saying that I take my job very seriously and I'm not out to get anyone, I write and repair all cars the way I'd want mine repaired, period, I try every day to live and work by the golden rule, that's a personal decision.
Quote:
majority of adjusters and Insurance companies suck from my shop owner perspective
I hear ya, and feel genuninely sorry about this, but really have to ask, on your end of it, what do YOU do to better the situation/relationships? We can only control ourselves, I've been a part of many many many shop vs adjuster conversations, in attempts to gain a truly mutually benefical relationship. In most cases this can be accomplished, but not when (not saying you do) a shop owner starts a conversation with cursing out an adjuster calling them names etc. I've found that more times than not, it simply comes down to (generally) the adjuster needs further education on a particular repair process....I know I know they should be trained better and I agree, if I were the boss of the world ever adjuster would have to work in a shop for six months before hitting the road. All I'm asking is on your part master what have you done to 'help' rather than hender the relationship?
Quote:
Over capacity maybe, cut throat Insurance companies? For sure!
I agree many many ins companies are indeed 'cut throat' what do you mean by this ''over capacity'' (maybe)...I really don't know what you mean by that (sorry, please explain).........



Lori has to go to work in her fantasy land as well, it's monday and we all know what that means.... Rolling Eyes Have a great day (i mean that Smile )


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:52 pm   Post subject: Yes Lori, DV and Insurer Fraud exists, but Bigfoot may not!  

Here are two Diminished Value Stories printed in the Chicago Tribune and another in the Baltimore Sun March 3rd, 2008.



http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/investing/bal-bz.ml.spending02mar 02,0,776393.story



http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/yourmoney/chi-ym-spending-0302m ar02,0,3693238.story



Here is a link for the fraud study by CIC



http://www.princetonautobody.com/Docs/PDF/FraudReport.pdf



these links will most likely be disabled, so if anyone wants to review them; copy and paste them to your browser and leave the http:// off.



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:54 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
No I'm not what I'm saying is a 50% increase is crazy, and will never happen..






So your saying the rates will never go up to $65 an hour? You better have some good reasons. $65 an hour is about what other trades charge per hour. A small engine repair shop charges $60-$65 a hour to fix lawnmowers and chainsaws. But we have to make a $55,000 Escalade look like it was new after the thing goes off a cliff for an average of $45 per hour. Seriously you have spent way to much time in your company training meetings, A.K.A brainwashing.

Don't you see that everyone from the repair business who posts here all say the same things?

I posted a link to this site so other people from the repair industry would read these post,s and comment. I hope any consumer who reads all these post's loses some respect for insurance companies and gains more towards who is really there to help them. The body shop.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:35 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
So your saying the rates will never go up to $65 an hour?
NO once again I'm saying
Quote:
50% increase is crazy
meaning it won't jump from 45-65 an hour in one increase that was what I was saying....
Quote:
You better have some good reasons. $65 an hour is about what other trades charge per hour.
I'm not saying you might not deserve 65 an hour, but you cannot argue that ''other'' trades make this so you should! Should I make 65 an hour because ''other trades'' do? My husband is a train engineer so should he make what ''other trades'' do as well? how about the same as a pilot? or less like a bus driver? it is of no use to your argument....
Quote:
But we have to make a $55,000 Escalade look like it was new after the thing goes off a cliff for an average of $45 per hour. Seriously you have spent way to much time in your company training meetings, A.K.A brainwashing
See why do you have to be that way? With the insults...??? can't think of anything constructive? Maybe you are the brainwashed one? Ever think of that? Suppose you've bought into all the ''new software'' designed to make frudently parts and towing invoices? That's your industry not mine...maybe you've ''bought into'' that being an honest way of doing business?
Quote:
I hope any consumer who reads all these post's loses some respect for insurance companies and gains more towards who is really there to help them. The body shop.
I'm sure they will gain a huge amount respect for some of the links you all have posted.... Rolling Eyes VERY adult and professional...why oh why can't you answer the questions and make your points with TRUE FACTS, and not be insulting? THAT my friend is one of the things that is distroying YOUR industry....How dare you say that I'm not there to 'help' the consumer, you don't know me! You are not qualified to make a remark like that! That is the reason I'm here to help people, don't see you doing anything to 'help' anything! Rather just leveling insults, it's fine if you want to educate a consumer, but to do so by throwing rocks at others is no way to do it, and any consumer with have a brain can see that! Look threw this site, and see how many people I'm not interested in helping! Are you reading some of these links? and the fact that most make zero sense...and all the UNSUBSTATIATED statements of fact that are not fact based at all?



Quote:
http://www.princetonautobody.com/Docs/PDF/FraudReport.pdf
same links over and over, I responded to this link in this thread http://www.ampminsure.org/community/viewtopic.php?p=19736#19736


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:07 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Here are two Diminished Value Stories printed in the Chicago Tribune and another in the Baltimore Sun March 3rd, 2008.
Actually, that is one article that is quoted in two places. I'm not understanding your point in posting them as they simple comment on what DV is. We all understand what it is and that some people think it exists (is valid) and others don't.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:19 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Lori, When I mentioned the bird droppings etching the finish, I didn't mean while a vehicl was being painted, I meant after the finish has cured. Darker colors are more susceptable to this (I think because they get so much hotter). I'm not talking about "discount brand" finishes either - I've seen it happen to R-M, DuPont, Sikkens and PPG - all modern urethane finishes, not old enamels.
I've never heard of this complaint (paint from factory vs painted afterward). There is certainly a difference in the paint though.



Quote:
tcope mentioned something about a coalition to "police" the repair industry
News to me. I don't recall stating anything like that. I _do_ remembering asking if Mike thought all repair shops were 100% honest (given that he said insurance companies should not question a shops estimates or repairs). I never saw an answer.



Quote:
Lori, as far as warranties, I am speaking about the panel that was replaced not having a transferrable warranty. I don't know what kind of a vehicle you're driving, but if the manufacturer's warranty isn't transferrable, it might have been built in Taiwan (along with those imitation parts ... LOL - c'mon - that was a joke). Seriously though, I have never seen a manufacturers warranty that didn't transfer.
Good point. Off hand I don't know that the part's warranties don't transfer. But also, most vehicle sheet metal warranties are still only 4 years (some are now longer, but not many). Most carriers won't use LKQ or AM parts on a vehicle less then 2-3 years old anyway.



But keep in mind that I'm simply agreeing that DV is simply a _perceived_ state. In reality, the vehicle _is_ the same. So way would any insurance company want to add to this perception? Look at it this way... if it's not known or forgotten, nothing has changed and we actually _ALL_ win. In reality, it's the people pushing DV that are hurting everyone.
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