by AutoBody by Jake » Thu Jan 17, 2008 02:36 pm
Thought it best to start a new topic. Maybe there's people out there that have questions about DRP's and the shops that become one.
I've got quite a bit of experience with the direct repair program process and it's ups and downs, yes. There's a fair bit that goes on behind the scenes, and that's where I see some headaches.
Do you have any experience with them where you are? What do you think of them?
I've got quite a bit of experience with the direct repair program process and it's ups and downs, yes. There's a fair bit that goes on behind the scenes, and that's where I see some headaches.
Do you have any experience with them where you are? What do you think of them?
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 07:02 am Post Subject:
What are my options if I feel that they are deliberately devaluing my claim ?
Are you fixing the car? If you are what difference does the final cost make as long as it is fixed properly?
No! just inquisitive to know about my options :) You never know when you are required to encounter with such situations. :) My insurance rate is already pretty high because of my age and an accident is the last thing that I want in the coming three years (at least).
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 01:00 pm Post Subject:
Hi, I meant no offense Lori, what I said is the general idea.
No offense at all taken by your remarks Aurther...I could tell you were seaching information which I tried to explain to you....no worries, I understood immediately the HUGE difference in yours and Bodybyfischer..You personally might not have lowballed any claim in your entire life …..but it's unfortunate that not all the professionals are like you.
agreed...just as it is not all body shops that deliver vehicles back to the owners with subpar work on their part, runs, dirt, fisheyes in the paint, washers and shims to level up panels, filler and paint on frame rails,...delivering vehicles after dark, hiding from customers when they have legitmate complaints regarding workmenship...Well, it seems that I'm not the only one who has something to say against the drp programs and I guess I preserve the right to have my own opinion.
You do indeed, I just ask that it be an educated informed opinion and not one based on unsubstantiated rantings..with zero documentation to back it up....that's all....oh, and that we don't sterotype an entire industry...I mean truthfully, (not saying you did), isn't that ALWAYS a statement of ignorance?Steering is illegal, no argument here, but so is price fixing, charging for things/repairs that have not been completed, doctoring invoices, etc.!
It is not steering to give a person all the information and let them make their own EDUCATED decision....
They save money because they convince the shop that if they give them a discount on everything they will make up for it in volume. There are many, many things that the insurer whats from the shop, even the shop to pay tow bills and rentals
I wish you could learn to use the words, 'some' all companies don't do this...the one I work for (for instance and certainly not the only ones!) do not have any discounts, certainly pay the tows and rentals...unless of course a shop drops the ball and due to their own negligence or shotty repairs a vehicle has to come back for re-work then the shop may be on the hook for the rental, but shouldn't they?Insurers have basically ruined the collision business with Direct repair programs
Another hysterical statement...they have also made many many more shops rich!insurers to totaly control a repair
And shouldn't they to some degree? Who's paying the bill? If there was no control, and you must admit this is right, there are shops out there that would be charging ten hours on a two hour dent...or replacing a bumper cover for 600 bucks that has a scratch....The collision business has been invaded so badly by insurers
again this is so funny...who is paying ALL OF YOUR BILLS? How many (percentage wise) customer pays do you do?It makes me sick that companies who lie and cheat anyone possible have ruined what used to be a good well paying profesion
I'm sorry if your shop isn't doing well..sounds like you are in a huge market, and clearly have trouble getting along, so that would have a lot to do with your income I'm sure..But here in the midwest, the 'average' body tech makes more than 60k per year....and the larger shops over 100k...no problem here...it's still a good paying profession...
The average NY autobody hourly rate is $44
Apparently you are in a flooded market, because the rates in the midwest are 46, and getting ready to move again.....who's fault is this? It's the market you're in! geeeeeeeeeeze is that so hard to see? Some areas are still as low as 28.00 why? Talk with your fellow body shop owners for that question, they are the ones cutting your throat not the carriers. you said it yourself...You get told some one down the street only charges $44
And if they quality is near the same, what do you think the average Joe would do if there were no insurance payments and he is paying out of his own pocket? I'll tell you, you would have zero work...Also, what gives a adjuster who has never repaired a car in his life the right to tell some one who has years and years of experience and training how to repair something and how long it takes
You don't have to be a chicken to know a bad egg when you see it....fyi, I was both a tech and body shop manager for a very large shop for several years, so 'I" do know what I'm talking about....telling him this is included and we don't pay for this or that, look at his toolbox that costs more than your company car and think about why this innocent guy gets screwed on every job, because of you and your companies policies.
GEEZE, you and I both know that insurance companies don't make these rules...they are pre-set by the estimating system..which one do you use? Do you not know your own system well enough to know what is and is not an included operation? Or, if they adjuster does make the mistake, and pays you twice for an operation, I'm sure you will immediately bring this to his/her attention right?A spray booth is $60,000-$80,000, a frame machine with a measuring system is $40,000, basecoat is at least $30 a pint, clear is $100-$200 a gallon, a box of sand paper is $75 dollars, pay your staff, insurance, rent, all other utilities
This is the cost of doing business that you chose! Period...Do I look to see how much the plumber has invested in his equipment? Or maybe the corner deli, I go back and check out his ice boxes, and stoves? Please...it's called overhead, and for those that don't know this IT IS ALL WRITTEN OFF EITHER DEPRECIATED FROM YOUR INCOME TAXES AND ON THE TECH LEVEL THEY TOO GET A DEDUCTION FOR THEIR TOOLS, IF THEY DON'T THEY NEED TO FIND A BETTER TAX PREPARER OR ACCOUNTANT!I know there are a few good companies out there. State Farm is about the only company I have some respect for.
Ok, here's the deal, I hear this across this great country and it appears to be a regional thing...in one area the shops hate state farm, and love progressive, go a state over and it reverses...it has more to do with the way things are handled or managed in that particular area, and down to the adjuster...you ought to know that...I have had just about every company try to stick it to me one time or another
Really? I've had about every shop I go into for the first time try and stick it to me too! Petite little gal comes in surely she don't know much, here you go, ''honey'' this car has all kinds of unibody trouble, just look at this hood gaps, we are going to need about six hours frame time'' then i ask for tram gauges, and they about puken themselves...so don't tell me that insurance companies are the only ones that do this!I have been around this both business' my whole life.
me too....I have seen companies do things that are just plain wrong and even illegal
again me too, and I've see shops do the same...My point is why can't you admit (as I can about shops) that they ALL DON'T...THAT NOT EVEN A HIGH PERCENTAGE DO....if you saw something 'illegal'' it was your responsibility to report it..did you?Why do most companies want preliminary estimates as low as possible and everything supplemented.
They don't...if you are talking about an adjuster looking at a car prior to any tear down, at an owners home....or you just can't tear it down...what are we to do...''assume'' something is damaged and pay it? NOT...nor would you if you yourself were paying it...tell you what next time, you or one of your techs damages anothers vehicle in some incident that you yourself would be paying it...lets say a rear cover is hit, lets not tear it down, and pay the guy for a cover, absorber, rebar, and repair the rear body panel while we're at it....What about this USAA estimate I have sitting right next to me. '07 Mazda 3, bumper cracked needs replacement, adjuster deducted 1 hour from paint time for UPD scratches on opposite side of damage that was claimed. This bumper was damaged from the accident beyond repair and needs to be replaced, so why does it even matter if the other side had a scratch.
This is incorrect in anyones book, and the adjuster has made a mistake, if the panel required replacement due to this loss, their should not be any betterment charged....and you should bring this to the adjusters attention...Maybe we should just paint the new bumper drag it across the floor, and tell the customer thats the way it looked before the accident.
pretty cute analogy though, i have heard it before, it does make sense, you or the customer should talk to the adjuster or his/her supervisor regarding this particular case...come on, you make no mistakes? and besides that if he were charging betterment it shouldn't just be on the refinish side, he should've charged some repair time as well.....I don't have to worry about being fired from a insurance company so I do whatever I can to let people know how crooked the inusrance business is
And you should if there is a particular problem, but i'd be mighty careful if I were you when you generalize like this...There are some estimators that have never fixed a car, but most are guys that just wanted to get off the floor. A good shop wants a writer who knows what to do and how to get paid for everything.
that they do! and not to be paid for things they don't do right?What about the shops that charge (for instance) to detrim a door, and I make an unannounced drop in the vehicle is in the booth, or just been sprayed and the idiots taped everything off? huh? what about them? Is this not lying and theiving? of course it is...but I"M NOT MAINTAINING THAT ALL SHOPS ARE THAT WAY! But there are some that are...I suppose you are going to say that's it's ok, since the big bad ins company ALWAYS screws the poor body shop right? Two wrongs make a right? If that is your stance that is unethical and you know it.....You are owed for what you do, and no more!
All I would like to see you admit, is that there are some/many damn good adjusters out there, that pay a fair price for the work the shop does. I'm sorry but, if you can only find one company in the entire state of NY that you can get along with, this has to be a problem with you, and your shop...think about it....can everyone always be wrong and you are right? Can EVERYONE be a crook but you? Frankly with statefarms new drp guidelines I'm surprised you get along with them, or maybe it hasn't made it to you yet....I think their coming in and going thru all your claims to make sure you are giving them the lowest rate is unethical, but you get along with them.....interesting.....
For the record, I would jump to the defense of your industry (or any other for that matter) were these broad rangeing stereotypcial remarks made against it as well....why not just say ALL GREEN EYED PEOPLE ARE CROOKS!...... makes about as much sense, and yes, I have green eyes.........
Lori, just wanted to say fantastic answer! I wish I had something to add to it!
Thanks Jake, you did and I appreciate it...this one sided non-sense is ridiculous...Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 05:49 pm Post Subject:
I know there are a few good companies out there.
You must have missed this sentence. Go back and read it again. I never said ALL adjusters were crooks or EVERY company was. Just like when MOST adjusters read a supplement they read what THEY want to read and ignore the rest. Just to let you people know my father is a adjuster and has been for thirty years. I know alot of adjusters his age who are honest guys, and work with shops. I see you like to put words in my mouth so I'll specify the kind of adjusters I refer to. The people that Progressive and the Progressive wanna be companies that hire people straight out of college with no background in any automotive field, they then send them to a few weeks training and then they are out in the field writing half ass estimate. I know a Progressive adjuster who's only job was working in a Thom McCann shoe store prior to working at Progressive. Jake and Lori you are obviously offended when true facts are stated. I'm also not so ignorant that I do not know there are hack shops doing things wrong. Keep denying my facts if it makes you happy. Should I post some Pics to defend myself?
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 06:18 pm Post Subject:
Jake and Lori you are obviously offended when true facts are stated
Woah there tiger. Back up a second. Point out where I was offended by the statement of a "true" fact? I'm not offended in the least.
Now I AM passionate about this business, from all angles, as I have replied. Don't mistake my passion for being offended. :) I don't know you, I can't possibly be offended by our discussion unless of course you called me some inappropriate name. :D Your father and I might see eye to eye, and I prefer to think of myself as an honest guy too and I do my best to work with all my shops. Heck, I'm probably the same age as your dad, how old is he? :)
Lori and I also seem to be cut from the same thread and prefer to do our jobs with integrity.
Now I have not had a chance to answer your other posts, and am in the middle of my work day, but later this evening when I've had a chance to relax from the cold, I'll digest what has been said in this thread so far and attempt to be as objective as possible. Which up to now, I believe I have been.
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 03:07 am Post Subject:
I guess it is ultimately up to the customer and the customer will have to do the research to make an informed choice. I know around where I live there are a few shops that have really good reputations and that is where pretty much everyone goes, I don't know if they are a DRP or not, I know they are getting really good word of mouth advertising out here in deer country.
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:54 am Post Subject:
I never said ALL adjusters were crooks or EVERY company was.
These statement you've made seem to differ.....I know there are a few good companies out there.
I didn't miss this, then you followed it withState Farm is about the only company I have some respect for. I have had just about every company try to stick it to me one time or another
Dad work for State Farm does he? You have clearly stated that with the apparent sole exception of state farmI do whatever I can to let people know how crooked the inusrance business is
It makes me sick that companies who lie and cheat anyone
And apparently clearly you have the biggest trouble with Progressive...
The company that really gets to me is Progressive and the companies that hire ex Progressive staff to learn their slimy ways
I'll specify the kind of adjusters I refer to. The people that Progressive and the Progressive wanna be companies that hire people straight out of college
So that I am not putting words in your mouth are you saying that ALL adjusters that work for progressive, are ''slimy'' ?The people that Progressive and the Progressive wanna be companies that hire people straight out of college with no background in any automotive field, they then send them to a few weeks training and then they are out in the field writing half ass estimate. I know a Progressive adjuster who's only job was working in a Thom McCann shoe store prior to working at Progressive
Do you think that Progressive is the only company that hires kids out of college, or that worked in a shoe store prior to coming to work for them? This is silly....what did anyone working in your shop do prior to working for you? Do you really think that all body techs have ALWAYS worked in the autobody repair field? Do you not hire young people starting out in life, and train them? What did your dad do prior to being an adjuster? Do you think all airplane pilots for example worked for only airlines? Seriously that statement does no good for your argument, people change fields/professions all the time, did you work while in school? I don't understand what on earth that statement has to do with this AT ALL! So what? Let's see I too worked at Thom McAn (in about 1975 or 76), I've also worked at a battery factory, owned and operated a bait and tackle shop, trained dogs, was a life guard, I'm an old broad so I could go on and on...so what? I see no point here...Jake and Lori you are obviously offended when true facts are stated
I have no problem, nor am I offended when true facts are stated...I am however, offended when you label an entire industry this way....I agree whole heartedly that there are bad adjusters and companies out there, but I do not think that it is the majority as you state, (you even only have ''some'' respect for ONE)Keep denying my facts if it makes you happy.
What ''facts'' are we denying?Should I post some Pics to defend myself?
Against what? Slimy, lying adjusters like Jake and I? You know I've got just as many of crappy body work...so what? What photo's do you think will prove your point? Let me remind you what your point was:You didn't address one point that I or Jake made, you just keep throwing random examples out there...none of which are proving your point that:
they convince the shop that if they give them a discount on everything
Insurers have basically ruined the collision business with DRP programs.
Collision techs are making less money now then they did 20 years ago.
I have seen companies do things that are just plain wrong and even illegal
Look, all I would like to see you say (and you have kind of with this statement FINALLY),
I know alot of adjusters his age who are honest guys, and work with shops.
Do 'chick' adjusters figure into that too? :roll: And must they be of a ''certain'' age? You'd be hard pressed to find one single shop within a 100 miles sweep of my town that would say one disparaging word against me or my ablility. All I'd like to see from you is to admit that there are many (majority) damn good adjusters out there...we are not all crooks, and liars, most are good hard working people that want to complete their jobs with integrity and an honest work ethic....that's all, oh, and stay on track.Honestly, although I don't mind the back and forth, I have to wonder, with your clear contempt for insurance companies why did you want to even come to this site? I don't want you to leave, so don't go there, I think you are a good poster...I'm just curious about your motivation?
You of course are 100% correct Erb...
I guess it is ultimately up to the customer and the customer will have to do the research to make an informed choice.
Heck, I'm probably the same age as your dad, how old is he?
:lol: Me too! or I may be older than all of you! :roll:Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:24 am Post Subject:
Great answer again Lori. Not too much I can add to your replies.
I know that shops here have had problems with Progressive and in the state I live in, they do have the concierge program, but the shops that are on the program volunteer to be one.
I have heard of quite a few problems between the shops and Progressive more than once.
Again though, the shop can get off the Concierge program any time they feel that they are being abused. They are not required to be a Progressive Concierge shop.
Like any DRP everything is explained to the shop up front. The rules, the procedures, etc. The insurance company doesn't spring the requirements on the shop the first day they are on the program after they sign the contract. You know all this stuff right up front.
My question would be if these shops' owners are good businessmen, why would they continue to be part of a program that they are losing money on?
There was so much said in the posts I've read, that if I missed a direct question, let me know and I'll answer it.
Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:57 am Post Subject:
My question would be if these shops' owners are good businessmen, why would they continue to be part of a program that they are losing money on?
Great point! and all shops can 'stop' or 'drop' from any program of their own free will (course they can get fired too!)....RE: Progressives Concierge program let's not forget it is a type of 'hy-bred' of a drp...and many many 'different' things associated with this unique program.
My understanding that they (progressive) still run a regular drp in many many areas as well...No problem in my area with them...As I said though you can go area to area, and find state farm or progressive is loved in one area, go a state over and they are dispised...has a lot to do with the adjusters handling the area.
Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 03:09 am Post Subject:
About the labor rate issue being low....What do you think would happen if the area shops would get together and decide to increase the labor rates? Price fixing! Insurance companies would try to sue or put someone in jail!
Low labor times??? Who do you think CCC, Mitchel, ect. work for? Their biggest customers are the insurance industry! They catter to the insurance industry. You can't deney that. If I was in buisness I would catter to my biggest and best customer too.
How many ex shoe salesmen start in a bodyshop, work a month, then do a structural repair on a vehicle? We who work in a bodyshop learn, but not overnight. That's why it irritates us that a pimple faced ex shoe salesmen can come into a shop and tell someone who has been working on frames for 20 years.... It doesn't need this or that.
I work for a DRP shop and I tell people all the time DON'T take it to a DRP shop. It's a conflict of interest for someone to take it to the place that is basicly footing the bill. The insurance industry has brain washed the bodyshop industry that they are the customer because they are paying. They are paying because they are legally responsible to the insured bought a policy for their vehicle to be repaired to pre-loss condition. The customer is the owner of the vehicle. How come the insurance companies want to use junk yard, aftermarket, ect? It saves them money on substandard parts! It was an OEM part on the car before the accident wasn't it? It should be afterwards too.
I make a good living in this industry but I'm getting sick of the money that I have been cheated out of. Blend with-in is the last straw for me, I'm about to do just that. With the clear not the color:) Why do techs shortcut? Why do adjuster short an estimate? To make more money! But we are the bad guys and have the bad reputation?
Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 01:02 pm Post Subject:
Welcome painterguy to the community.....couple of things here I'd like to point out...first since you are doing this.......
I work for a DRP shop and I tell people all the time DON'T take it to a DRP shop.
I certainly understand how this is happening...I'm getting sick of the money that I have been cheated out of.
and don't understand how you can do this....I make a good living in this industry
About the labor rate issue being low....What do you think would happen if the area shops would get together and decide to increase the labor rates? Price fixing! Insurance companies would try to sue or put someone in jail!
Only part about this that is price fixing is this part...area shops would get together and decide to increase the labor rates?
Just like ins. companies can't get togather and raise the rates, independently the shops can, and should..you should know that the way rates are increased (ins. wise) is through shop surveys...every year or so they do a survey..now if only 2 out of 20 are charging 50 an hour and other 18 are still at 48...what do you expect? Also if you've been in the business any length of time you and I both know that shops get together and agree on what they will 'tell'' the surveyors...happens all the time..and really I (personally) have no problem with this....Low labor times??? Who do you think CCC, Mitchel, ect. work for? Their biggest customers are the insurance industry! They catter to the insurance industry. You can't deney that. If I was in buisness I would catter to my biggest and best customer too
I agree with you that ccc, mitchell, audatex etc largest companies are likely the insurance carriers, but I also know that they all do time studies in body shops...and more importantly send surveys to the shops...so that's your 'side' of the industry filling those out, not the ins part...really I think the bigger problem is that many reps (and body shop estimators) don't actually know how to use the systems, what's included what is not and must be added...I have to come along after other adjusters all the time, and write supplements to add certain labor operations, because they didn't take the time to check the p pages or whatever...MOST times neither did the shop! I WAY more times than not find this missing labor and add it without the shop manager even recognizing it or asking for it...so there is a lack of education on both sides...The person reading/accepting the estimate needs to have a complete understanding of the system that sheet was written on...but do they want to take the time to do it? Many times no they don't...you're right (before you say it) so should the adjuster that wrote the estimate! Most times (believe it or not) it's simply not knowing, I can tell you that if I was a shop owner/manager/whomever that goes over the estimates I would damn well know how to read one and what I might need to ask for that was overlooked...again before you go there I was a body shop manager and DID do exactly what I am preachin'.... :wink:That's why it irritates us that a pimple faced ex shoe salesmen can come into a shop and tell someone who has been working on frames for 20 years.... It doesn't need this or that.
I'll agree with you to an extent on that statement...but again...If your shop manager had a good understanding about included operations and could enlighten/educate and show mr.pimply faced adjuster in black and white USING HIS OWN SYSTEM. Then it's a win/win...It's a conflict of interest for someone to take it to the place that is basicly footing the bill
I'm not getting any sense out of this statement the DRP shop isn't footing the bill and that's what you have said.I'm sure you meant it differently, so please explain..
The insurance industry has brain washed the bodyshop industry
That's not a very complimentary statement about your own industry is it?that they are the customer because they are paying.
They are the ones footing the bill (ins carrier),They are paying because they are legally responsible to the insured bought a policy for their vehicle to be repaired to pre-loss condition. The customer is the owner of the vehicle.
You are correct subject to the policy conditions which lay out EXACTLY how the vehicle can be repaired...as a side note (and this thrills me to pieces) some companies have now started offering an endorcement (costs more of course) for NEW OEM parts only, I wish all companies offered this..then there is no arguement ever....because although the policy clearly lays out the repair options most people don't ever read it...Ok, you've made some errors here....
How come the insurance companies want to use junk yard, aftermarket, ect? It saves them money on substandard parts!
Yes, it saves money you are correct...so does generic prescriptions over 'oem', but I'm sure you always tell the pharmacist...'''no no, I don't want the generic for 10 bucks I want the OEM for 50 bucks instead!" come on!It was an OEM part on the car before the accident wasn't it? It should be afterwards too.
Here's where you really messed up...what you are callingjunk yard
parts are OEM!!!! For pete's sake I'd think you'd know that!It was an OEM part on the car before the accident wasn't it? It should be afterwards too.
Well, it is when LKQ, used or 'junk yard' parts are used, so that argument is out the window...and what it has on it before the wreck is a 2-5-8 year old part (depending on the year), and all companies I am aware of require that any LKQ part be same year (mileage on some parts) or newer...so there goes that arguement....I've been around a long long time, and I'd have agreed with you re: a/m parts years ago, but the past oh, 7 years or so they have gotten really really good, and rarely do I have a part that is what I would call 'substandard' when one surfaces, back it goes...period.......Just another little foot note here....in the past year, all the US manufactors (parts vendors) on almost all the estimates I been writing are price matching the OEM for the shops! (selling oem parts for what I've writen the a/m price) Now, what does that tell you about their markup? Talk about stealing! If they can afford to match the prices on the a/m and still make a profit, (which they HAVE to be or wouldn't do this)....how long have they been gouging the body shops and insurance companies with ridiculous markups? If for no other reason....the aftermarket industry has put a halt to most of that! You have to agree, that is extremely fishy!
Blend with-in is the last straw for me, I'm about to do just that. With the clear not the color:)
Well, I'll agree again and you have to understand that the adjuster writing that sheet has ZERO control over these decisions...I've personally fought and fought and fought this particular fight to no avail...these decisions are made way high up by some suit in a tower that has less knowledge than your pimply faced adjuster! Partial refinish has always been an issue, and the biggest issue (which really doesn't affect you unless you're the owner) is in material cost...I can see partial refinish with FULL CLEAR, on say the front edge of a door damaged by the fender getting into it....and I think you would/should agree with the same...however it's the material on this partial that hurts the shop...I heard a rumor just last week that the company I work for (which is HUGE), is going to do away with partial refinish soon...couldn't make you any happier than it does me let me tell you!Why do techs shortcut? Why do adjuster short an estimate? To make more money!
Depends on what you mean by a tech short cutting, a tech can endanger a life shortcutting or butchin' a repair, an adjuster cannot!But we are the bad guys and have the bad reputation?
According to whom? You think a body shop tech has a tougher time defending their profession than an adjuster? NOT!I've enjoyed your post, and want you to know (for what it's worth) I found it very intelligent and you got your point accross eleoquently without being personally insulting....something I wish others in your profession would also do...in lends much more credibility to your post....I'm very thankful....
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