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 Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:15 am Post subject: Condo HO6 Illinois insurance questions |
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Hi,
I had a fire sprinkler system leak that caused damage to my condo/townhome from a licensed workman that put a screw threw the pipe. Their company wouldn't pay for it and to matters worse, another company that did remediation took the screw out of the pipe while it was on and caused more damage. Anyways, I had to make a claim with my insurance company.
The question I have is, my insurance company says my association is liable for inside structural walls as per Illinois Condo Act for an HO6 policy. My association says, they didn't cause the damage, and therefore aren't liable. This is my townhome, and the damage was to inside walls.
My insurance after much work, is going to pay for the drywall, but said that my association should really pay for that. I don't understand, isn't the inside of my place the insurer's responsibility or am I wrong? Please let me know, and where it says that in the IL Condo Act.
But, I had to pay for the fire sprinkler to be fixed.
Thanking you in advance.
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anonymous 2
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:13 am Post subject: |
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As far as I know, association is responsible for building and all common areas.
The walls inside your townhouse damaged by your fire sprinkler is your responsibility and should be covered under your insurance. So, your insurance should be paying for it not association.
Your fire sprinkler fixing costs would be borne by you, but the damages may be recovered through the insurance.
Talk to your insurer or insurance advisor about this. |
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Monawayne
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | My association says, they didn't cause the damage, and therefore aren't liable. |
The fire sprinkler system needs to be inspected and maintained according to law. Do you pay for that with your own money or does the association pay for that with the fees they collect from you and all the other owners?
The answer to that question will tell you who is responsible for the damage done to and by the sprinkler system.
I'm betting that the association pays and is responsible, and that your insurance company was correct to begin with. It should not have been your responsibility to order and pay for the initial problem, and certainly the contractor that created the additional damage bears liability for the aftermath of his shoddy workmanship.
You need to get the state contractors licensing authority involved in this, and you may need to file a direct written claim for all your losses against the COA, which they will deny, and then you take them and the contractor to small claims court, where you should win.
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MaxHerr
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:28 am Post subject: Fire Sprinkler, Insurance, Association and contractors |
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Thanks for your feedback. I pay for fire sprinkler inspections, not the association because these are townhomes.
My adjustor cites IL Condo Act Section 12 1a that the association is liable for bare walls, floors, ceiling, etc. Basically, they say they aren't liable for the fire sprinkler pipes, because that is structural too and the association says they didn't cause the problem so not liable (and that it would be different if it was one big building with centralized sprinkler pipes). I got my insurance to pay for drywall reluctantly (because they say under the IL Condo Act Section 12 a 1) that that is structural and the association's responsibility. And this is INSIDE walls in my unit. So, I said I basically don't own my unit then? He said I do, but I don't. And I was told because I made a claim with my insurance, I can't go after the contractors now...my insurance will for themselves.
And again, I had to pay for the fire sprinkler pipes.
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anonymous 2
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Are all the units in your association sprinklered? If so, then, like the primary structure, the sprinklers belong to them not to you, even if you are paying for the inspections. According to Section 12(b) (paragraph 2):
| Quote: | | Common elements include fixtures located within the unfinished interior surfaces of the perimeter walls, floors, and ceilings of the individual units initially installed by the developer. |
That would certainly sound like the sprinkler system -- if it was not a subsequent addition to your unit specifically.
As a condo owner, you don't own the structure, you own a revocable "right to occupy". That's why you don't have to carry coverage on the structure itself. You are responsible for covering the interior walls inward.
Also, you should take note of Section (f):
(f) Primary insurance. If at the time of a loss under the policy there is other
insurance in the name of a unit owner covering the same property covered by the policy, the association's policy is primary insurance.
I guess you'll have to go through the CC&Rs to see what is specifically said about the space between the interior walls and the exterior walls. But something sounds fishy to me, and your Association is shirking its responsibility to you as the unit owner (probably trying to avoid a premium increase).
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MaxHerr
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:45 am Post subject: Fire Sprinkler, Insurance, Association and contractors |
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Thanks again for your replies, all the help I can get on this is appreciated.
Yes, all the units in the development came with by law per village ordinance, with sprinkler systems included. As far as Section 12 b: Common elements include fixtures located within the unfinished interior surfaces of the perimeter walls, floors, and ceilings of the individual units initially installed by the developer. I have a question about this phrase. What do they mean by unfinished interior surfaces of the PERIMETER walls, etc? I thought perimeter means outer which would be shared with common area, i.e., like inner wall of outside walls. This fire sprinkler pipe was in an inner wall inside my unit, not part of perimeter walls...even though the sprinkler goes throughout the whole place. So, does perimeter walls, floors, ceilings, etc. have another meaning here???
Also, my property management firm which seems to tell my association what to do, says they didn't cause the problem so they aren't liable. They said it would be different if 1. either their workers caused it, or 2. It was one big condo/apartment like building with sprinkler systems throughout. They said they aren't liable. Would that be in my by laws? Where would I look for that? Is that what you mean by CC&Rs? They told that to my adjustor and when he read back that they should be paying for it, the owner of the property management firm said that there is a $2,500 deductable anyway. The fire sprinkler system repair cost me over $500. And the management firm said the drywall they wouldn't pay because of the $2,500 deductable too, so I got my insurance reluctantly to pay for it.
Thanks for pointing me to Section F. I don't totally understand that though. Does that mean any damages done in a unit who has condo insurance that wasn't caused by the association or property management firm, that the association is required to pay as primary insurance? If this is true, everytime a claim is filed, someone would give it to the association and then the premiums would be skyhigh. Need your feedback on this.
Yeah, my association is really the property management firm, and they are really difficult to deal with.
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anonymous 2
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| Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What do they mean by unfinished interior surfaces of the PERIMETER walls, etc? |
These would be the walls inside your unit. "Unfinished" means bare drywall . . . thus, wallpaper, paint, or other "surface treatment" (like carpet over an unfinished floor or texture coating over drywall) is not the responsibility of the Association. But the drywall itself IS. At least that's how I read the sections of law as presented.
As I mentioned in my first post, a standard Condo HO-6 policy covers from the inside walls in, because from the inside walls out, that is supposed to be someone else's responsibility . . . the Association's. So the property portion of your HO-6 covers the wall finish, possibly the wallboard (if damage is due to your negligence). The liability portion of your policy would cover your negligent damage to the interior of the wall/ceiling/attic space. If a fire in a neighbor's unit damages yours, your property coverage protects the inside of your unit, not the Association's.
| Quote: | | Thanks for pointing me to Section F. I don't totally understand that though. |
As I read the plain language used by the legislature, it says that if you and your Association both have coverage for the same damage, your Association's coverage is primary -- it pays the full amount of the loss up to the policy limit. If that is not enough to cover the full loss, then your coverage, as secondary, would pay the remaining loss up to its limit. Between the two policies, that would most likely cover 100% of a property or liability loss.
So if the (nonnegligent) fire in your neighbor's unit damages the walls of your unit, the Association's property policy is supposed to pay for the replacement of the "unfinished" walls. Your policy would pay to finish them with paint, wallpaper, or surface texture. But if your Association's policy exhausted its limit before all your repairs were complete, your policy would cover the unpaid portion, up to its limit.
But, to me, it looks very clear that if the sprinkler system was installed during the original construction, the Association must treat it as a "common element". It might help to also see the first paragraph under Section 12(b):
(b) Contiguous units; improvements and betterments. The insurance maintained under subdivision (a)(l) must include the units, the limited common elements except as otherwise determined by the board of managers, and the common elements. The insurance need not cover improvements and betterments to the units installed by unit owners, but if improvements and betterments are covered, any increased cost may be assessed by the association against the units affected. [ emphasis added ]
Now when you see the definition of "common elements" in paragraph 2, it is VERY CLEAR that what is INSIDE the walls and above the ceiling is the responsibility of the Association's insurance coverage as required by the law. Sprinkler systems installed at the time of construction, like other plumbing, are not "limited common elements" nor are they improvements or betterments.
Again, you may have to go to the CC&Rs to see exactly who is responsible for maintaining "common elements". It may be impermissible for the Association to shift the responsibility for maintaining common elements to unit owners. There may be something there that describes the "limited common elements", but the fire sprinklers are certainly not "limited" common elements.
You'll probably need to speak with a Real Estate attorney for better legal advice on this. I'm in California, and I'm simply applying common sense to a plain reading of the law. There may be case law on exactly something like this in Illinois that more clearly settles the matter, and an Illinois Bar-admitted attorney specializing in Real Estate would know.
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MaxHerr
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:30 am Post subject: obligation ?? |
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please let me know if it is obligation take by the law and which is the number of it (law ) and wheere I can find it ..
thnks you very much
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antonio morgado
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| Property (765 ILCS 605/) Condominium Property Act is an act enforced by law. |
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Monawayne
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Monawayne . . .
What makes you think Illinois law applies to the poster's question? Besides, the statute you cite does not have anything to do with insurance.
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MaxHerr
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:56 pm Post subject: Coverage for dwelling seems low. |
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I recently experienced a flood inside my condo and my dwelling limit is $8,000. Is this low? My cost just to have my place dried out with the Systems Master is eatting over $6,000 and it leaves me little to replace my wood floors, dry wall replacement & reinstall my sink & counter. The leak was caused by a pipe under the ground. My condo is valued at $50,000. and my square footage is about1,200. Please inform.
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