Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: Just trying to help
OK, I have tried to respond several times but it never post so let me try again. Gary, you are correct, there is a lot behind this story but I was simply just trying to find out what the kids were facing. I have no clue exactly why my brother in law didn't put both of the kids on. They are both true siblings. My sister married brother in law right out of high school and have been married over 20 yrs. He did tend to be a bit harsh to my sister and their daughter. I contributed that to his terrible upbringing but we loved him anyway. With both my brother in law and sister gone I just want both kids to have equal share of the estate which is what I think my sister would want. If the insurance is just his... so be it but I don't fully understand insurance and estates, they were asking questions, and I'm attempting to help. although the nephew is mimicing his dad's attitude. The way I see it is they have lost both parents so they need someone in their corner if possible. I do have one other question only because it doesn't make sense to me. OK, both died but brother in law was pronounced dead immediately, CPR was started on sister and she was transported to hospital where apparently she at some point was pronounced dead. With brother in law pronounced first, wouldn't that leave the benefits to my sister since she was legally still alive? And if so, would that still make son beneficiary or does that change anything? People are telling these kids all kinds of things. I know that they need to procure a lawyer but there is no money until someone gets the insurance or they start selling things.
"It doesn't matter whether the Aunt "thinks" the disposition of those proceeds is right or wrong...it's the way the policyOWNER wanted it. Nor does it matter the 18 year old is ill-equipped to handle a very large sum of money and will more than likely squander that money.
That's the way the policyOWNER wanted it."
Gary, you are correct, it doesn't matter what I want... never did matter. These were questions I threw out for answers in which all of you provided input and answers to. You are barking up the wrong tree if you think I have anything to gain here. My heart has stayed torn since the police called. I then had to go break it to the rest of the family. This was my youngest sister. This is the sister that I basically raised because my mother had to tend to another sister that had major health problems and needed round the clock attention. This is the sister that has worked along side me the last 16 yrs in a family business. Those kids are like my own kids. I hope you NEVER have to feel my pain. _________________ Register Now to have your Insurance queries solved.
Oh Paula! I'm extremely for your loss. You and the kids, all are going through a very hard time for sure. I can clearly understand your anxiousness to secure the interests of the kids.
However, I've to agree (as because it is correct) that both the kids should get the share of their parent's fortune, irrespective of the fact that one may waste it out very soon, if neither of them have their names mentioned to receive particular benefits.
If you are sure that your sister would have wanted both the kids to receive their rightful shares, you should respect her desire.
OK, both died but brother in law was pronounced dead immediately, CPR was started on sister and she was transported to hospital where apparently she at some point was pronounced dead. With brother in law pronounced first, wouldn't that leave the benefits to my sister since she was legally still alive? And if so, would that still make son beneficiary or does that change anything?
Now that's a good question and it depends whether or not there is a common disaster clause in the policy or in state law.
A common disaster clause simply states the beneficairy must survive the Insured by a certain period of time say 30 days otherwise that beneficary is presumed to have predeceased the insured.
Most states have adopted the Uniform Simultaneous Death Act. This law would dictate the order of death when parents die together. But the law is used only when the spouses' Wills say nothing about who survived whom - or if there are no Wills at all. Each spouse would be treated by the Simultaneous Death Act as though he/she were the survivor. With the other spouse presumed to be gone already, nothing would go from one dead parent to another. This is the same outcome as achieved with the language used in most simple Wills.
If there is no Will, property is distributed according to the state law of intestacy. The Uniform Act does not specify who gets what. It pertains to the order of death only. Once that is determined, state law or the Will takes over to control the actual distribution of property.
The Uniform Simultaneous Death Act provides that if an insured person under a life policy and a beneficiary die at once, the insured will be presumed to have survived, unless otherwise provided. In that case, the policy proceeds would go to the alternate beneficiary. _________________ Gary Spicuzza, *SAFE
Copyright 1956.
No rights reserved.
*Self Appointed Financial Expert
Paula, the way I understand it, the son may (most likely) get all the life insurance that he is beneficiary to. However the daughter is still entitled to half the estate....whatever that may be...certainly an attorney needs to be hired for her if the boy isn't going to 'play fair' (IMO)...
I can't tell you how sorry I am, I went thru a similar situation with one of my little brothers....(his kids though were minors)....You and your family are in my prayers. _________________ Have you been helped by a poster? Do you want to show your appreciation? YOU CAN !! Just simply click on the donate button and send them some coin!
In the spirit of argument and not to be argumentative this thread is a classic example of how little knowledge the general public has regarding what happens when people die.
I'm going to respond to some of the misconceptions posted on this thread.
I'm NOT being harsh or unsympathetic.
The question you have to ask yourselves is.....
Do you want emotional hyperbole or do you want exactly correct information?
Although, I'm going to copy and paste what others have written I'm NOT personally attacking YOU. These comments are typical MISCONCEPTIONS.
TheInsuranceFiles wrote:
Quote:
Well if the son is the sole beneficiary I guess technically everything would be his. But, as a brother, you would think that he would be willing to split everything down the middle
.
No, not "technically." LEGALLY the death benefit is his and his ALONE by contract beneficairy designation.
"willing to split everything down the middle"??? The policyOWNER designated in HIS life policy who he wanted to receive the benefit of his life insurance and he purposefully, for whatever reason, EXCLUDED naming the older daughter.
The son is under no legal obligation whatsoever to split the money with his sister. That would also cause gift tax implications that I'm not going to get into.
Juanita wrote:
Quote:
If you are sure that your sister would have wanted both the kids to receive their rightful shares, you should respect her desire.
Forgive me for being so blunt. These are adult children not minor children.
The sister has absolutely NOTHING to do with the administration of the parents estate unless a probate court judge appoints her as the executrix.
The life insurance isn't about what the sister thinks the other sister would have wanted regarding the disposition of the funds from another person's life insurance policy. The policyOWNER controls the beneficiary designation. Not their spouse, brother, sister, daughter, son, mother, father, sister-in-law, brother-in-law, mother-in-law, father-in-law, grandma, grandpa or anyone else.
Lori wrote:
Quote:
an attorney needs to be hired for her if the boy isn't going to 'play fair'
Play fair with what? The boy's father wanted him to have his life insurance benefit. The daughter's father purposefully EXCLUDED her for reasons we'll never know but I'm quite confident he knew he had a daughter and didn't list her as a beneficiary.
No one needs to worry about anyone playing fair regarding the rest of the estate that is subject to the probate court system. The attorneys will make sure every "I" is dotted and every "T" is crossed which will result in a needless estate shrinkage charge of 3% to 8% of the inventory value of the probate estate. _________________ Gary Spicuzza, *SAFE
Copyright 1956.
No rights reserved.
*Self Appointed Financial Expert
Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:54 pm Post subject: Thank you
Ok, I think I have a pretty fair understanding. I stood back and let the kids make the arrangements and watching them fight this out themselves since they are both adults. I just hope that older sister doesn't decide to send younger brother to jail the next time he hits and drags her off the property. As I said, you all have given me some great input and I truly appreciate it. I have talked to my side of the family and we are going to put up the money to see if we can get a lawyer to explain all of this since my nephew wants to take things in his own hands as far as the estate is concern. Yes, I understand that the insurance has no bearing on the estate. This is wishing everyone a GREAT day!! PJW _________________ Register Now to have your Insurance queries solved.
The estate Gary...not the life policy. That's what I was referring to..when I said..
Quote:
However the daughter is still entitled to half the estate....whatever that may be...certainly an attorney needs to be hired for her if the boy isn't going to 'play fair' (IMO)...
_________________ Have you been helped by a poster? Do you want to show your appreciation? YOU CAN !! Just simply click on the donate button and send them some coin!
This thread in classic example of estate planning misconceptions and mistakes.
I'm switching sides now to point out the ignorance of men in general and the father in particular regarding estate planning.
This story could be re-titled "An Essay on How to Tear Your Family Apart When You Die"
The father in this story must have read the "Must Die in the Right Order Guide to Estate Planning." Naming the wife as the primary beneficiary is a usual and customary thing for married couples to do. Naming the son as the only contingent beneficiary and excluding the daughter is unusual but it's not uncommon for a parent who is fed up with an irresponsible child to disinherit them.
Pops in the story above never figured on dying too soon or people dying in the wrong order or the simultaneous death/common disaster.
He made the wrong assumptions. He didn't view his life insurance as a serious and integral part of his overall estate planning. Just wanted to provide "something" for the Mrs. when he dies first ..."X"... number of years from now and by that time his son would be all grown and daughter married living happily ever after.
The only reasonable assumption that can be made when doing estate planning/life insurance is that you are not going to wake up tomorrow morning. Now with that image burned into your mind.... What kind of a mess have you left for your children and loved ones if you DON'T WAKE UP TOMMORROW MORNING?
The above story could also be titled, "People Change When People Die" or "Life Happens While You're Making Other Plans"
Several posters above were all over the "boy" in this story to "do the right thing." The boy is doing EXACTLY what you would expect an 18 year old boy to do with his brand new power of a large sum of money.
Don't blame him.
BLAME POPS.
Although I will adamantly defend Pop's right to name anyone he desires as a beneficiary on his life policy and I will also adamantly defend the boy's right to keep every penny of the life insurance proceeds.... look at the destruction that money has had on his children and other family members.
Moving on....many people wrongly think that a Last Will & Testament is the ALL POWERFULL document that is the FINAL WORD as to what happens when a person dies as if it is an edict from GOD.
A person's Last Will & Testament ONLY controls the property, (i.e. real estate, stocks, bonds mutual funds, bank accounts, CDs, savings, checking, money market accounts, cars, boats, planes, trains and motorcylces, etc.) in which the deceased person was the SOLE INDIVIDUAL OWNER.
It doesn't control, CONTRACTS nor does it control jointly owned property.
Had Pops above had a Last Will & Testament, and if the will said to split EVERYTHING between the two children, the life insurance policy still would have went to the boy by way of contract beneficiary designation.
For you married couples who may read this thread and think you are all set because you own EVERYTHING jointly with your spouse so you have escaped probate court...not so fast.
The dirty little lawyer secret (also known as fraud by omission) is that all the probate court problems and federal estate tax problems manifest themselves when, THE SECOND SPOUSE DIES.
Joint Ownership with a spouse or anyone else will eventually become Individual Sole Ownership and that form of ownership always triggers probate court upon death. With or Without a will. _________________ Gary Spicuzza, *SAFE
Copyright 1956.
No rights reserved.
*Self Appointed Financial Expert
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:09 pm Post subject: Life Insurance policy
The nephew hounded the funeral home until they finally delivered the death certificates to him (and only him). Since he didn't share the death certificates I inquired about the time of death and was told that they died approximatley an hour apart with the brother in law expiring first. After discussing this with the family I was advised to call B-I-L job to inquiring about what the policy said as far as if there was a clause. I did so and was told that since my sister wasn't available to "claim" the money then it would go to the son. Case Closed!!
I get a call today from B-I-L job that informs me that since B-I-L expired first then my sister was entitled to the death benefit since she was still alive. Since she died an hour later then it will go to the estate.
NOW these kids have some money to pay off prexisting debts and hopefully their life can go on as normal as possible. A huge load has been lifted off my chest wondering how in the world these kids were going to "create" money for the many bills that the parents had before their death. _________________ Register Now to have your Insurance queries solved.
Oh PJ, I sure hope this starts the turn around....for you and the kids...course nephew is gonna' be plenty ticked off isn't he? I feel so bad for the 'adults' in the family....the boy is just too immature to handle that much responsiblity...ten years (or maybe 20) he would feel much differently about it (I hope)...let us know how it all shakes out and how you all are doing....your in my prayers. _________________ Have you been helped by a poster? Do you want to show your appreciation? YOU CAN !! Just simply click on the donate button and send them some coin!
I get a call today from B-I-L job that informs me that since B-I-L expired first then my sister was entitled to the death benefit since she was still alive. Since she died an hour later then it will go to the estate.
Dear Paula,
You obviously did not comprehend a single word I wrote in any of my previous posts.
Having the life insurance death benefit paid to your deceased sister's Estate is the absolute worst outcome.
That money will now be tied up in the Probate Court System for about 3 years and by the time the lawyers and creditors are finished there won't be any money left for anyone.
When life insurance benefits are paid to the Estate that money is treated just like any other probate asset and now instead of that money being EXEMPT from lawyers fees and creditor claims everyone is going to get paid and receive the benefit of your brother-in-law's life insurance EXCEPT his son which was his desire and intention.
This statement below highlights just how misinformed you are:
Quote:
NOW these kids have some money to pay off preexisting debts and hopefully their life can go on as normal as possible. A huge load has been lifted off my chest wondering how in the world these kids were going to "create" money for the many bills that the parents had before their death.
They will get what's left three (3) years from now.
I hope you are happy with yourself because now ALL attorney fees, any auto loans, all the credit card debts the parents had, any liens, medical bills etc., will be paid out FIRST through the court system before these adult children will see one penny.
You have foolishly and ignorantly interfered with your brother-in-law's life insurance designation.
On behalf of all the probate practice attorneys keep up the good work! It will be three (3) years before this Estate is ever settled.
This post should be interpreted as being harsh. It's meant to be harsh. But the above circumstances are the harsh realities of life and death.
You should be ashamed of yourself for causing a valuable asset to be wasted away needlessly.
Please keep us informed of the forthcoming long and arduous Probate Court proceedings. _________________ Gary Spicuzza, *SAFE
Copyright 1956.
No rights reserved.
*Self Appointed Financial Expert
Since you have done such a good job at wasting your brother-in-law's life insurance benefit I thought I'd share with you just exactly what typical attorney fees are to probate an estate.
(3) Compensation for ordinary services of attorneys in formal estate administration is presumed to be reasonable if based on the compensable value of the estate, which is the inventory value of the probate estate assets and the income earned by the estate during the administration as provided in the following schedule:
(a) One thousand five hundred dollars for estates having a value of $40,000 or less.
(b) An additional $750 for estates having a value of more than $40,000 and not exceeding $70,000.
(c) An additional $750 for estates having a value of more than $70,000 and not exceeding $100,000.
(d) For estates having a value in excess of $100,000, at the rate of 3 percent on the next $900,000.
(e) At the rate of 2.5 percent for all above $1 million and not exceeding $3 million.
(f) At the rate of 2 percent for all above $3 million and not exceeding $5 million.
(g) At the rate of 1.5 percent for all above $5 million and not exceeding $10 million.
(h) At the rate of 1 percent for all above $10 million.
And to pour salt in the estate shrinkage wound Florida Statute 222.13 states:
Quote:
(1) Whenever any person residing in the state shall die leaving insurance on his or her life, the said insurance shall inure exclusively to the benefit of the person for whose use and benefit such insurance is designated in the policy, and the proceeds thereof shall be exempt from the claims of creditors of the insured unless the insurance policy or a valid assignment thereof provides otherwise.
Notwithstanding the foregoing, whenever the insurance, by designation or otherwise, is payable to the insured or to the insured's estate or to his or her executors, administrators, or assigns, the insurance proceeds shall become a part of the insured's estate for all purposes and shall be administered by the personal representative of the estate of the insured in accordance with the probate laws of the state in like manner as other assets of the insured's estate.
So, just for easy numbers, if your brother-in-law had a $300,000 life insurance policy BECAUSE that money is now part of the Probate Estate the attorney will receive an additional $9,000 in lawyer fees plus costs and expenses.
The personal representative of the estate is also entitled to compensation at the rate of 3%.
That's ANOTHER $9,000 gone....needlessly.
Wow! $18,000 simply gone and that's before everybody else.
Is THAT what your brother-in law wanted for his son? _________________ Gary Spicuzza, *SAFE
Copyright 1956.
No rights reserved.
*Self Appointed Financial Expert
While Paula Winters' niece and nephew have to sort things out, there are lessons for us to learn from this incident.
Say if a couple have 2 adults children who are not in talking terms, there are considerations to be made when proposing insurance plans for the couple.
The couple, just like most parents, obviously do not wish the relationship of their children gets worse when they are not longer around. Disputes amongst siblings always happen when deciding who is to get what over their parents' estate.
Improper planning may aggravate the situation further especially when the children are eyeing for immovable properties such land or houses.
Let's hear how would you propose insurance plan or estate planning to the couple. _________________ I am an insuranc sales coach for almost 2 decades. I have a collection of insurance agents' sales stories. To know more, you can visit http://www.stories-connect.com or http://xoseph.wordpress.com
In this particular case, sounds like Dad was somewhat unapproachable, based on the only information we have which is from our OP the aunt.
I will tell you what we have done, regarding property with our children...we own a home and two recreational farms...used primarly for hunting...the boy gets the farms, the girl gets the house...they both know it and both are happy with that arrangement...the girl probably couldn't find either one of the farms if she had to, and the boy spends a lot of time on both with his dad...and hunts alot, the girl well she's a vegetarian...so there you go....all 401k's life insurance etc..is 50/50...when we were young and bought life policys and not sure how our family would grow, we added to all in the beneficary, (some might still say this), 'children of this marriage share and share alike'. _________________ Have you been helped by a poster? Do you want to show your appreciation? YOU CAN !! Just simply click on the donate button and send them some coin!
Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: accident
First of all, PAULA...........I am SOOO sorry to hear about the death of your family members. As I read the entire thread, on this, it seems like such a 'family greed' thing. LORI has given you some really good advice and (..in my opionion, anyway) has been 'neutral' through the entire discussion. What I see?.......is a family torn apart because of money. Who gets what and how much.Family should stick together in issues like this...not go at each others's throats. Not to be morbid, but........reading cases like these should give the rest of us some kind of 'red flag' on what might happen if we are not prepared. I hope things are 'working out' a bit smoothly, concerning the insurance issues. Again, PAULA, I'm very sorry to hear of this.
$18,000 simply gone and that's 
