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 Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Seems we have moved to the subject of "suicide", rather than the original question about lying on a life insurance application.
All life insurance policies I have ever seen, have a two-year "contestible" period. If a person dies within this contestible period and the insurance company discovers a reason(s) that the life insurance policy should not have been issued, all premiums paid will be refunded and that's the end of that.
After the policy has been in force for the length of the contestible period, the claim will be paid, unless the applicant has comitted fraud.
Ins Investigator might want to join in on this one.
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InsuranceMaze
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Seems we have moved to the subject of "suicide", rather than the original question about lying on a life insurance application. |
Read the OP again Maze... | Quote: | | Isn't it true if someone does lie on application and it goes 2 years with out the company catching it they can;t hold it against them. They will also be completely covered. Isn't it true if someone is covered for 2 years and they committe suicide they are also covered. |
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Lori
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Great info Maze especially the TITLE 38 > PART II > CHAPTER 19 > SUBCHAPTER III > § 1973.
The reason why I believe most people think suicide isn't covered is because the suicide exclusion clause is written in "lawyer speak" and...this is going to sound dumb, but in the policy it's titled Suicide Exclusion.
Most people read the title Suicide Exclusion then infer suicide isn't covered. They don't bother to read the actual clause that states something to the effect, if the insured commits suicide while sane or insane within two years of policy issue our liability shall be limited to the refund of the premiums paid.
So you can see the company states the time frame (2 years) and what's paid (refund of premiums) if you commit suicide during the first two policy years.
An accidental death policy or an accidental death rider is another story. Those are NEVER paid because death by suicide is not an "accident."
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GarySpicuzza
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:48 am Post subject: |
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They would never be paid under accidental death policys i agree...but there ARE accidental suicides...trust me...
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Lori
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | They would never be paid under accidental death policys i agree...but there ARE accidental suicides...trust me... |
Can you please give one such example? I'm really curious. You want to mean that someone has decided to commit suicide but decided against it when it's already too late!!
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carda-mom
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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The legal profession seems to be forging a battle with insurance companies over the "suicide exclusion".
Somewhere along the line, courts have agreed that in order for an insurance company to deny a "suicide" claim, it must prove the intent to commit suicide.
Proving "intent" can sometimes be very difficult, since the insured is no longer with us.
For example, does a person who drives 120 mph on I-95 have the "intent" to commit suicide ?, even though this person was killed in the crash.
How about a pre-arranged "accident" during a hunting trip? Can the "intent" to commit suicide be proven in a court of law?
Yes, there are many "accidental suicides", but who can prove it?
This is just another reason why insurance companies must adopt "legaleze" in the insurance contract and, at times, must increase their premiums. Court battles are expensive.
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InsuranceMaze
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Can you please give one such example? |
I'll give you a couple here in a second.. | Quote: | | I'm really curious. You want to mean that someone has decided to commit suicide but decided against it when it's already too late!! |
That's possible I guess but no that is not what i meant..
What I mean about 'accidental suicide' is some poor messed up person that is looking for attention or help, takes a handful of pills knowing darn well they will be found before they die...but something goes wrong, (ie mom didn't get home at 3pm, she was held up and didn't get there til 8pm and that was too late)...Drunkin' sick individual goes out of his way to get what he thinks is the least damaging fire arm he has, even makes a trip to garage to find what he 'thinks' are the smallest bullets for this fire arm (when there are five or six ''guaranteed to kill ya'' guns within reach)...in his drunkin' messed up state, he figures, this will gain him sympathy and maybe looking for help too in desparation...and he shoots himself not in the head but the chest...however he miscalculated, and in fact would've been better off with a big bore rifle...and he even calls 911 himself...those people did not 'intend' to die, they intended to get attention and help...but things went terrible wrong...THAT is what i mean by accidental suicide.
Now oppose that to a woman that takes a gun puts it in the roof of her mouth and pulls the trigger, THAT woman intended to die.
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Lori
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | those people did not 'intend' to die, they intended to get attention and help...but things went terrible wrong...THAT is what i mean by accidental suicide. |
 Lori, I'm perplexed by your "accidental suicide" dissertation.
The life insurance company doesn't care how many times your accidental attempted suicide fails. They only care when it's successful. I'm not sure what your point is with respect to the Suicide Exclusion contained within a life insurance contract.
A person is either dead or alive.
If dead the policy pays, almost always; if alive, the life insurance policy never pays; unless you take withdrawals to your cost basis then loans thereafter, but that's...another story. 
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GarySpicuzza
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| Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The life insurance company doesn't care how many times your accidental attempted suicide fails. They only care when it's successful. I'm not sure what your point is with respect to the Suicide Exclusion contained within a life insurance contract. |
I know that Gary and said so... | Quote: | | They would never be paid under accidental death policys i agree...but there ARE accidental suicides...trust me... |
In response to your statement : | Quote: | | because death by suicide is not an "accident." |
I was not in any way argueing | Quote: | | I'm not sure what your point is with respect to the Suicide Exclusion contained within a life insurance contract |
My entire point was that there are indeed accident suicides ALOT of them...not that it changes how ANY life policy pays...just the FACT that there are some/many 'suicides' that were accidental...that's all (again) responding to this comment: | Quote: | | death by suicide is not an "accident. |
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Lori
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 3:54 am Post subject: |
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I am of the view that whether the death by suicide is accidental or not, suicide itself is an intentional act and shoud not be covered under accidental death policies.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:36 am Post subject: |
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Even though you commit a suicide accidentally (I'm feeling awkward about writing this) the insurance company wouldn't pay the accidental death benefits for it. the beneficiary is only due for the death benefit under the plan.
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anonymous 12
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I am of the view that whether the death by suicide is accidental or not, suicide itself is an intentional act and shoud not be covered under accidental death policies |
I totally agree... | Quote: | | Even though you commit a suicide accidentally (I'm feeling awkward about writing this) the insurance company wouldn't pay the accidental death benefits for it. the beneficiary is only due for the death benefit under the plan. |
I further agree and have said so...only point people i was making is there are indeed accidental suicides...NOT that they would get/qualify for accidental death benefits.
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Lori
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Lori, when someone INTENTIONALLY inflicts an injury onto themselves that is not an accident.
I know what you are saying but the combination of words are simply contextually incongruous with the meaning of the words and causing my brain to react in such a way as to challenge the content NOT of your character but the ill-gotten reverse oxymoron of your phraseology.
There are no accidental attempted suicides. There are self inflicted injuries that didn't result in death. You're saying they accidentally didn't die on purpose. Fine, but they intentionally didn't inflict enough damage to themselves to die on purpose.
 This is why men and women argue!
Where's Dr. Phil when you need him? 
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:07 pm Post subject: insurance |
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| GARY and INSURANCE AGENT: I am in a Army Reserve Unit in the state of PA ( I really don't want to 'reveal' which one), ..I was at the Unit about 3 months. We were told at one of our 'Safety Briefings' that a Soldier has died in a car wreck a few weekends before. He was NOT wearing a seatbelt...his Life Insurance was 'Null and Void' because of this...his family received NOTHING. When I was in Iraq, our unit had a 'meeting' with one of the Army Chaplins, stationed there, at the time. He had told us that a Soldier came to him with ALOT of 'personal' issues. From what I gathered, this Soldier's CO (Commanding Officier denied the request to go home because the 'personal' issues had nothing to do with the 'immediate' family ( Mother, Father, etc.). The Soldier shot himselve, with his own M-16 ( a Military rifle) right in front of the Chaplin. The Soldier's POA was his mother. The Life Insurance was 'Null and Void' because of the suicide. The SGLI 'covers' a Soldier 24/7. However...........you have to go by the Laws, in which you RECEIVED the SGLI, to get the money. For example: NOT wearing a sealbelt, driving DUI, wreckless driving ( if proven), Suicide ( if proven,........ALL of these things make the SGLI 'Null and Void.' |
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sdchargersfan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I know what you are saying but the combination of words are simply contextually incongruous with the meaning of the words and causing my brain to react in such a way as to challenge the content NOT of your character but the ill-gotten reverse oxymoron of your phraseology. |
If I actually knew what you said, I might possibly agree, but anyway . . .
When a person downs a bottle of sleeping pills, hoping someone will find them before they die, is not an accidental suicide. The person knew or should have known what would happen if noone found him/her.
Whether sane or insane, commiting an act that might possibly end our life is an intentional act.
Now, an airplane falling out of the sky on someone who had just shot themselves would be an accident.
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