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 Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:33 am Post subject: Response to 7 questions - Question 1 |
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Seven Questions –
In your first question what you really seem to be asking is what percentage of people succeed with SHC compared to the rest of the insurance industry. Considering everything (weeks off, redistribution of ads, personnel changes, etc.), the average over the course of 5 years is probably about 5 new recruits being trained per week. As far as retention goes, or in your words, “a snowball’s chance in hell of success”, we likely retain slightly less than the industry average primarily because we are generally more demanding of our agents because of the continued level of investment into them each and every day. Agents must hit the ground running and we provide all of the support that we can to help them to do that. We invest in them every day in the form of preset appointments, admin assistance, management, training, business submission and placement, SHP department, call center, etc, etc, etc…. most opportunities do not have this level of day to day investment into their agents. We have a decent amount of individuals who change from one division to another or still keep their contracts active to submit an application every once in a while. Right now we have roughly 150 actively producing agents and approximately 30 managers and trainers who are no longer actively field producing. Doing the math that equates to roughly 1 in 7 or 8 consultants still involved with our organization. If that is a snowball’s chance in your mind then you are correct. |
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Shcmanager
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:34 am Post subject: Repsponse to 7 Questions - Question 2 |
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| On the churning or twisting of business - This is not only untrue, but it makes absolutely no sense from a business standpoint. As has been referenced in earlier posts, we do receive a level commission for most of our insurance products for 6-7 years. That being said, if we already have a client whose policy is paying commissions to us, who also has a product we believe in, how would it make any financial sense to have that policy replaced? If we charge back the commission from a former agent we simply have to pay it right back out to the person who sold the new policy. Literally, this is the LAST thing we would want to happen. We have no idea what you are referring to, but if you are referring to converting a policy from one subsidiary under one carriers umbrella of companies to another, that was done for a time (when our carriers clearly promoted doing it) in order to provide our clients with the best option available to them and that practice did not result in the original writing agent being charged back for the original policy written. Please understand that every decision this organization makes is first and foremost designed to benefit the seniors that we work with. We constantly teach that if it is the best thing for the senior it will be the best thing for our agents. This is a small community Seven Questions, the carriers are very aware of even a single agent trying to do something like you are suggesting. |
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Shcmanager
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:35 am Post subject: Response to 7 Questions - Question 3 |
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| On the IRS form - Yes! Form SS-8 is used to request a determination from the IRS on status of workers, to determine if they are employees or independent contractors. This question will be addressed thoroughly in the following post which another Manager will directly examine /explain the employer/employee/independent contractor relationship. I will only say that this has never been an issue in any of the states we have conducted business, nor has it been an issue for the vast majority of agencies that 1099 their agents. |
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Shcmanager
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:37 am Post subject: Reponse to 7 Questions - Question 5 |
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| In regards to PFFS or PPO training; again, your statement is not only untrue, but absolutely ridiculous. We still have some agents that sell Medicare Advantage PFFS policies! The only way we can think of that this could have been misconstrued is that it is true that certain companies no longer offer Medicare Advantage PFFS or PPO as of January 1, 2010 and that plans can change each year but that is on an individual and state by state basis. What you are saying has never been taught and is in none of our training materials. We encourage all agents to find the plans in their states to determine what changes are taking place. As previously stated, our job is to protect seniors; we take that job very seriously. We would never, knowingly or otherwise, advise anyone to do anything that is not in strict accordance with CMS rules and regulations as well as the rules and regulations of the state where they reside. |
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Shcmanager
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:39 am Post subject: Response to 7 Questions - Question 4 |
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| To the BBB Ratings - The BBB ratings change regularly. Thank you for calling to our attention that our rating is not A+ currently. Any materials we have representing an A+ rating will be changed. You are correct when you say, “no longer”, as our rating had been A+ the last time we checked. I can assure you it was an oversight, not an attempt to mislead or misrepresent anything associated. I will also say that we represent a lot of carriers and the concerns we generally address is that of the ratings of carriers we represent, there is generally not an issue associated with our rating. We obviously do all we can to maintain the highest level of rating with the BBB and any complaint this organization has ever received has been addressed and taken care of. |
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Shcmanager
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:40 am Post subject: Response to 7 Questions - Question 6 |
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The 2004 violation that resulted in the below action from the TDI was actually a result of practices that occurred in 2000 and 2001 and was a result of an affiliation with a carrier who taught sales techniques that were later to be found in violation. This is not an excuse and Mr. Dale took full responsibility for his actions. His affiliation with this insurance carrier was discontinued March 28, 2002 and in 2003 he founded what would later become Senior Healthcare Consultants (SHC). A lot was learned from that experience. He cooperated with the Department’s enforcement authority in its investigation of all complaints that took place back in 2000 and 2001. This was and has been the only violation on Mr. Dale’s record in Texas and there has never been any violation on Mr. Dale in any of the other 47 contiguous states for which he has active business.
So, regarding your initial question as to whether or not we advise prospective agents of this instance, the answer is no, as this issue took place with a different carrier and prior to SHC even being established. |
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Shcmanager
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:57 am Post subject: Reponse to 7 Questions - Question 7 |
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Addressing being surprised by comments getting to critical mass - I am not sure the basic inquiries that I have seen to this point would qualify as critical mass but I can say that I am out here now to correct as much of these misconceptions and misunderstandings as possible.
I encourage you to contact me at SHC_answers@shcmarketing.com with any viable concern that you feel is not getting addressed and I want to personally thank you for helping us to accomplish one of the goals for being out here, that being to do all we can to make this organization better. |
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Shcmanager
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:42 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for your responses.
1) No. Your math simply doesn't add up. By your statement, you were averaging a recruitment of five agents a week for the last five years, which would return 1300 agents (5 agents x 52 weeks x 5 years). In my experience in 2009, you were actually recruiting ten to twelve agents a week, and you were stepping up the pace at that time. You issue agent numbers sequentially, and my number was well over 2000.
Assuming an actual 2500 agents and assuming 150 current career agents (which is likely also an overstatement, you're probably throwing in your part-timers as well to save face), and recognizing that more than half of this number represent new agents from personal experience (as they haven't seen the scam yet), I would put total turnover at somewhere between 95 and 98 percent, not the 85 to 88 percent turnover you claim. And yes, by any measure, that's deplorable, and points to milking agents for their setup fees.
This was a simple question that required a simple answer, and you dodged the actual question and lied about the rest. Par for the course.
2) You blew this one too. I have several applications still in my files that had come from leads generated by "the system" and were actually current Senior Healthcare Consultants clients. You're right - churning or twisting business makes no business sense, unless you factor in replacing business as a method to burn out an agent and force him or her into debt. And, as we've seen, that's what the SHC business model is all about. Thanks for proving my point.
I normally hate the regulation that mandates that I keep paper records for years under lock and key, but sometimes it actually comes in handy.
3) IRS Form SS-8 isn't a problem for most agencies because they do due diligence and recognize that training cannot be mandatory or a condition of employment for a 1099 employee. You didn't. Having dealt with the IRS before, I can tell you folks this: They really don't have a sense of humor. Good luck with that.
4) I was there in the daily mandatory meetings last year and personally heard and saw managers telling agents to tell seniors that all Medicare PFFS and PPO plans were abolished as of January 1, 2010. Plenty of other agents can and will testify to this. So, it wasn't just agents who were lied to on this count. Seniors were misrepresented under the explicit direction of SHC management. The next time you debate this one will probably be with the powers that be at CMS.
5) I am actually surprised you owned up to this one. Laudable, but too late. You misrepresented yourself to thousands of seniors on this count too. For the record, and for everyone keeping score here, you have not been A+ rated by the Better Business Bureau since at least the summer of 2009. That's an inexcusable lapse. I am sure the BBB, CMS and TDI will not be amused.
6) How can you assert that Mr. Dale took full responsibility for his actions if the ongoing violations at SHC are substantially the same ones for which he was penalized by the Texas Department of Insurance in 2004-2007? Twisting, misrepresenting seniors - it's still going on, some of it even by your own admission.
7) How do you people live with yourselves?
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Seven Responses
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Shcmanager
All of the below questions refer to the 2009 fiscal year.
1. What is your name and position within SHC?
2. What are SHCs costs in performing an initial training session?
3. What was the total income from initial training sessions?
4. How many appointments were issued?
5. How many appointments resulted in a sale?
6. What was the total income based on sales?
7. How much was paid out in commissions?
8. How many new agents were trained?
9. In a previous post you stated there were roughly 150 active agents. What is the actual number?
Thank you
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Devils in the details
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it's any of our business to know who shcmanager is just as it's not their business to know who we are until this goes to the legal system. We have plenty of evidence against SHC without resorting to personal or ad hominem attacks.
Some of the financial information isn't our business either, and in any event, they can make up numbers as they see fit for PR purposes (as they apparently have already in this thread). Although shcmanager is writing with apparent authority to represent his company, his postings are not sworn statements and are not subject to perjury. We won't get a handle on the extent of the fraud and misrepresentation until SHC's actual financial records are subpoenaed and reviewed by the relevant authorities. Until then, however ridiculous their advertising and recruiting claims like "12 hours a day, $1600 a week" are to people who have been through the scam and know better, it's going to have to wait.
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....in fairness,
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:47 pm Post subject: SHC |
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I am very happy that I found this thread as I was about to email a contact on careerbuilder today about becoming a rep. I am very curious to know why seasoned reps that are already licensed must pay more than newcomers?
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Jelax
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Jelax |
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SHC's justification is that licensed agents have a poorer success rate in SHC's system than agents with no prior insurance experience. This is the reverse of what you'd expect, but there you are.
The point has been made that the failure rate for both new and seasoned agents at SHC is extremely high even compared to other 100 percent commission jobs. We're still trying to get a handle on just how bad turnover is for non-broker agents at SHC. |
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Twitch
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:54 pm Post subject: Not For Me |
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Received a call from some gal at SHC; the attitude in her voice alone was enough for me to say to myself "forget it". Her voice actually trailed off at the end of her phone message and she hung up before it was done.
All the negative stuff I've been reading on so many websites just seals it.
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None Of Your Business
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:40 pm Post subject: Response to Wrong Again |
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In regards to being in business for themselves. Do we vigilantly keep up with our sales force by accounting for their actions, requiring reports, etc.? Absolutely. Regarding your assertion that SHC salespeople are employees vs. independent contractors, per the IRS, the following is literally copy/pasted directly from IRS Publication 15-A:
“To determine whether a salesperson is an employee for social security, Medicare, and FUTA tax purposes, the salesperson must meet all eight elements of the statutory employee test. A salesperson is a statutory employee for social security, Medicare, and FUTA tax purposes if he or she:
1. Works full time for one person or company except, possibly, for sideline sales activities on behalf of some other person,
2. Sells on behalf of, and turns his or her orders over to, the person or company for which he or she works,
3. Sells to wholesalers, retailers, contractors, or operators of hotels, restaurants, or similar establishments,
4. Sells merchandise for resale, or supplies for use in the customer’s business,
5. Agrees to do substantially all of this work personally,
6. Has no substantial investment in the facilities used to do the work, other than in facilities for transportation,
7. Maintains a continuing relationship with the person or company for which he or she works, and
8. Is not an employee under common-law rules.”
Further, under common law rules, the following is stated:
The extent to which the worker has unreimbursed business expenses.
Independent contractors are more likely to have unreimbursed expenses than are employees.
The extent of the worker’s investment.
An independent contractor often has a significant investment in the facilities he or she uses in performing services for someone else. However, a significant investment is not necessary for independent contractor status.
How the business pays the worker.
An employee is generally guaranteed a regular wage amount for an hourly, weekly, or other period of time. This usually indicates that a worker is an employee, even when the wage or salary is supplemented by a commission. An independent contractor is usually paid by a flat fee for the job. However, it is common in some professions, such as law, to pay independent contractors hourly.
The extent to which the worker can realize a profit or loss. An independent contractor can make a profit or loss.
Type of relationship. Facts that show the parties’ type of relationship include:
•Written contracts describing the relationship the parties intended to create. – Everyone who comes on staff with SHC acknowledges the relationship the parties intend to create. Specifically those agents are independent contractors.
•Whether or not the business provides the worker with employee-type benefits, such as insurance, a pension plan, vacation pay, or sick pay.
In summation, obviously (as is the case in most 100% commission insurance sales organizations) our agents are not employees per the definition of the law.
On high Turn-over - I am not sure what you are basing your opinion on here but it is not factual as far as I can tell. There is no indication that SHC’s turnover is any greater or less than like companies. We do everything we can think of to help people to become successful. Again, I appreciate your opinion; however, it is not factual or accurate.
System designed to exhaust? If our system was built to exhaust others and throw people away we would not be continuing to grow as an organization like we are. We are the number one producer for our primary carrier and are growing at a modest but steady pace. That is through hard work and retention of agents, not the other way around. Your accusations are baseless and without merit but again I will respect your right to voice them.
Regarding the example given in my last reposne: Again you’re misguided – you seem to be speculating and forming an opinion that is void of any basis of truth. You have no clue what is paid for or not paid by SHC there is no exaggeration of the amount SHC pays to offer each agent this opportunity when factoring in the recruiting and overhead costs associated with running this organization. If you look at everything that we provide a trainee, every aspect of what you are mentioning is discussed MULTIPLE times throughout the process and before anyone steps foot out into the field. Many who start with us take advantage of the bonuses that are offered to offset the costs that you mention and many are very successful applying our training and system. They are successful because they work hard, they care about the seniors they meet with and they continually do the right thing for them, and they follow the proven successful system SHC employs. That is how we all provide for our families.
One more time as this issue has already been addressed. Any efforts to cause agents to quit are entirely counterproductive for us as an organization.
If you lived it you would know is what you state: If you lived it, you would know that what you are saying is inaccurate. I would assume that others that have tried and failed may share your views but that is human nature. It can never be their fault and the more people you can get to think as you do the better it substantiates the failure.
I am truly sorry this did not work out for you but your points are inaccurate at best and malicious at worst. We are hardworking people providing for our families just like you are and I can assure you that is not happening due to an agent that joins this organization and fails, that is ridiculous to even consider and 180 degrees from the truth. |
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Shcmanager
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| Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:02 am Post subject: SHC Information |
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Here is some additional background information on SHC.
Go to: www shcpr.info / feb2010 .asp
Don't know if it will help! |
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Shcmanager
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