by bikerlifeetc » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:53 pm
My daughter borrowed my car one day while i was out of town, she called and asked if she could, because it was very hot out, and her ac was broke. She ALWAYS drives her own car. She is scared of ours. SHe also has her own liability policy on her car. well, lo and behold she rearends a women who was waiting to make a left hand turn. I reported the accident to my insurance, and after 5 weeks, they denied my claim. They said she was not listed as living in our household on the application, and i was misrepresenting things. I was shocked! I called my insurance agent, who had filled out the application for me in my absence, and he said she was indeed not listed. He has been my agent for over 10 years, all i ever have to do is call him with what i need, he does it, and i go sign and pay. I signed that application 6 minutes before the agency closed for the weekend 2 years and 3 months ago. He just pushed the paper over the desktop, pointed and said sign here and initial here and here. we didnt go over anything on the application cause they were getting ready to close shop. I dont feel like i did anything wrong, but, i did sign. Someone told me that there is a incontestability clause, whereas, if they dont find an error in 2 years, it ceases to play a part in the claim. Is this the case with auto insurance, i thought that was just for life and health insurance. Can i force my agent to pay, since it was his mistake, or am i just done for?
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:17 am Post Subject:
I called my insurance agent, who had filled out the application for me in my absence, and he said she was indeed not listed.
I signed that application 6 minutes before the agency closed for the weekend 2 years and 3 months ago.
I can already see where this is going.I dont feel like i did anything wrong, but, i did sign.
Yup... we are going where I think we are going.Someone told me that there is a incontestability clause, whereas, if they dont find an error in 2 years, it ceases to play a part in the claim.
Can't say that I've heard of this and I deal with contracts a lot. But how long is your auto policy? Should be 1 year.Can i force my agent to pay, since it was his mistake, or am i just done for?
Well, we never actually went "there" but We got close... you failed to 1) read the legally binding contract before you signed and 2) Signed a legally binding contract representing that the information was correct. Yet, you did not make a mistake... your agent did.Bottom line, your agent did not sign the contract. Your agent may have made a mistake but at most it was just that... a mistake. You had every opportunity to read the contract and correct the information. You don't feel that you made an error... just that your agent did?
Can i force my agent to pay, since it was his mistake, or am i just done for?
If you forced someone to do something they did not want to do, you'd probably be breaking the law. You can ask your agent to pay for the accident. You can file suit against you agent for this as well. It's your right. Personally, I'd not hold me breath waiting for a favorable outcome.Has your carrier rescinded your policy for this misrepresentation? If not then you'd have a good cause of action against them for breach of contract. If they have rescinded the policy then what about taking their refund of premiums and settling the auto accident yourself? Also, what about your daughters insurance? There is a good chance that they would provide her coverage in this situation.
Quite frankly, you did very little wrong if your daughter has her own insurance. You were both paying for liability insurance. It does not seem like you were trying to scam a carrier into providing insurance for a risk and not paying for it. I think you'd have a decent case against one or both carriers. But I'd start with your daughters insurance carrier addressing this loss. To go one step further, if your carrier is not rescinding the policy I'd have a conversation with both your carrier and your daughters carrier to see if they will split the expense somehow and settle the loss. Your carrier would then not get sued by you for breach of contract, they could keep your premium and they would pay much less by sharing the expense with your daughters carrier. After all, how are they going to looked in a breach of contract case when you explain to a jury that you and your daughter were both paying the correct amount for insurance for any exposure yet both insurance companies are not going to step up to the plate because if a simple mistake that does not change the exposure itself. You really need to have this conversation with someone higher up, such as a manager.
But again, you need to report this loss to your daughters carrier yesterday.
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 01:52 pm Post Subject:
i understand what u have said, and i know i messed up by not reading the contract before signing, but i took for granted the he knew all my info after 10 years, and i trusted him to do it right. Also, i have had this policy for 2 years and 3 months. it has been renewed four times!! With EXACTLY the same application. the term is usually 6 months here in KY. I also have FULL COVERAGE insurance. I have already contacted progressive, wich is my daughters liability insurance, and they said they wont pay on this because their insurance follows the car and not the driver. My insurance company is alfa vision, wich i switched to at my agents recommendation. So, what u are saying is that I am probably going to have to foot the bill for over 20,000.00 in damages on both the accident victims car replacement, and my car, which is not yet paid off? Boy, that just dosent seem fair. also, the application was never available a second time for me to review it, i have still, to this day, never seen it again. I have no idea what was written on it to this day, you said i had every opportunity to correct the mistake, but i had no idea the error was there untill i tried to make the claim.
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 04:12 pm Post Subject:
they said they wont pay on this because their insurance follows the car and not the driver.
Semi correct but not on-point. Liability insurance is offered to the named insured. It usually _does_ apply when the person is driving someone else's vehicle. It's not primary in that case but when there is no other insurance, it usually comes into play to protect the driver. Have they sent you a written denial? Was it the insurance company and not the agent that "denied" the claim?You also don't mention if your carrier is going to rescind your latest policy (cancel it as never in-force). Also, has _your_ carrier sent you a written denial?
In addition to filing suit against your carrier (if you want to go this route) you could also file suit against your agent. You'd also bring your daughters carrier in as well.
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 09:47 pm Post Subject:
i have recieved a denial letter from my insurance company, but no notice of the recindication. it was mentioned in the last phone conversation tho. Do you think that my daughters insurance will pay for both vehicles if mine recinds? I just dont think all the money we have paid out for insurance over the years should be taken with no service when we are in time of need.
Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:22 pm Post Subject:
It won't pay for yours as it would only extend liability coverage and only liability coverage to your daughter (not to you... which should be fine).
Your daughters carrier my deny coverage as well if she has consistent access to your vehicle... so she may want to make it clear from the start that she "_never_" drives your vehicle other then this one time and that you normally don't allow her to drive your vehicle... as she has her own.
If your company rescinds your policy then they should return all of the premiums, at least for this current policy period.
Personally, I think you should probably fight a denial from your carrier. As I mentioned in a prior post, you were not trying to extend coverage to her and not pay a premium. You are paying a premium and she is paying a premium. So the exposure is almost the same. I'd first write a letter to your carrier and ask that they reconsider the denial based on this info. You may also want to point out that you feel your agent is partially to blame. CC your agent on this letter. If they does not get you anywhere they you may need to file suit. You'd need an attorney for this.
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 02:33 pm Post Subject:
they said they wont pay on this because their insurance follows the car and not the driver.
Excuuuuuuuuse me. But the fact that the insurance follows the car and not the driver is EXACTLY what provides coverage in a case like this.
In reality, however, the insurance DOES follow the driver, too. Your personal auto policy provides the same liability limits when you drive almost any other vehicle (it might exclude rental vehicles that are considered "trucks"). But it is SECONDARY to the coverage for the vehicle itself. Whoever told you they won't pay because "the coverage follows the vehicle" is an idiot.
What your insurance will not do is provide coverage to an EXCLUDED driver, which is what you would want to do with your daughter, if she lives in your home and has her own auto insurance. Otherwise your insurance premium will be based in part on the worst driving record (or driver with the least experience) in the household.
If you loan your vehicle to your next door neighbor, it's covered. If you loan your vehicle to your child -- who does not live in your home -- it's supposed to be covered.
Sure, if you fail to list a resident of your household, including a non-family member, and that person uses your vehicle, with or without your permission, the carrier might be well within its right, per the terms of the contract, to avoid a claim.
But it would not be a very good reason to rescind the coverage. You didn't pay for coverage, they don't pay the claim. No one has been harmed. I fail to see a legitimate reason for a cancellation. Claims denial, possibly, but recission, no.
Some carriers, such as Mercury, insert language in their contract that says even if you carry high liability limits, if your vehicle is being driven by a non-named driver (such as your daughter or neighbor), the liability limits are reduced to state minimums.
If, for any reason, your contract does allow the insurer to avoid the claim, then your daughter's coverage will pay.
Going back to your original post, when you "signed" paperwork, it was not the contract, it was the application. The contract arrived in the mail some time later. But you did have a responsibility to make sure the application was COMPLETE and CORRECT, which you may not have done.
If your agent has been your agent for 10 years, would he have known that your daughter was or was not living in your home? I would think so. If he was careless in filling out the application, you could possibly support a negligence claim, but that would be a stretch. How many other clients does he have and can he be expected to remember every detail about every client? Doubtful.
As tcope said, continue to talk this one out with the insurance company and see if you cannot come to some more satisfactory agreement that -- at the very least -- does not include cancellation of your coverage. Get your next phone call redirected to a supervisor who may have better knowledge than the claims rep you've been dealing with.
Being cancelled will force the cost of a replacement policy higher through no real fault of your own.
Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 02:49 pm Post Subject:
I just dont think all the money we have paid out for insurance over the years should be taken with no service when we are in time of need.
This is the one part of insurance that most people don't fully understand. Life insurance is one thing, all other insurance is very different.
In life insurance you are paying for a continuous period of coverage, from now until the contract ends. So you owe all that money over all that time.
All other insurance is issued, typically, for one year at a time. You pay for a year, and the contract ends.
Like paying for a meal. You go to the ALL YOU CAN EAT buffet and pay. Is it a lifetime of ALL YOU CAN EAT? No, it's a one-time-only opportunity. You pay for your insurance for one year (or six months) and it's a one-time opportunity to be covered for that length of time.
Doesn't matter that you've paid the same company for 1-10-20 years. It's one year at a time, and after that all bets are off. If it happens during the period of coverage, great, if not, too bad. You don't build up a cash/claims reserve as a result.
Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:37 pm Post Subject:
i have secured an attorney to help me wade through the muddy waters of this case, and they recommend claiming to my daughters insurance. We will just have to see what the result is. The root of the case is that, though there was an unintentional misrepresentation, it was not done with the intent to defraud the insurance company. It was a mistake. The insurance company has RENEWED my policy, with the totalled out car still on the policy, even though they know it is totaled and not drivable. They are also automatically withdrawing the money from my account. Does this mean that they ARE admitting the validity of the contract, or application, as it stands? Seems like it would to me, being as though they know the car is destroyed, and the misrepresentation that they would not pay the claim because of, still exists on the application. Gee, you mean the almighty insurance company that wants to hang me out to dry just made an ERROR also?
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 01:07 am Post Subject:
I agree, the insurance company is digging a hole for themselves. If they were going to deny a claim for material misrepresentation they should have rescinded the policy as it shuts the door on a lot of the problems they may have.
You say that they "know" the vehicle is a total loss.... but they really don't and you may still be driving that car on the road. So they are not going to pull coverage for it until you ask them to.
Gee, you mean the almighty insurance company that wants to hang me out to dry just made an ERROR also?
That is one way to put it. Another is that the insurance company wants to collect a premium equal to the risk. If someone is usually driving a vehicle then there is a known and ongoing risk. If the insurance company is not collecting a premium for that risk then they should not need to provide coverage. I think that is fair. What is also fair is that the insurance company _asked_ you to right her name down and you did not. You can blame that on who ever you want but there is only one person who's at fault.Call your agent and have the vehicle removed from your policy if its not being driven. Ask them to back date the removal to the date of the accident (they might not do it but you can ask and sometimes they will).
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