| Message |
Author |
|
 Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:29 am Post subject: how is it possible for |
|
|
| how is it possible for auto collision damage estimate jump fron 1992.00 to over 13k in 48 hours |
|
aquarius29
New member
Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 2
2.17 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Well, apparently its an unusual hike, but we need more detailed account of the whole incident to determine the reason of this increase. |
|
carol
Preferred member
Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 195
32.69 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | how is it possible for auto collision damage estimate jump fron 1992.00 to over 13k in 48 hours |
May be the body shop owner has just bumped into some hidden and un-repaired old damages, which he has added to the current damage estimate. you may need to ask the person, who have given you the estimate to explain the figure to you.
_________________
Register Now to have your Insurance queries solved. |
|
ladyinpink
Guest
|
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
More than likely there was an inital estimate, without tear down, then once the vehicle was torn down the additional damage was exposed...happens all the time.
_________________
"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr. |
|
Lori
Moderator
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8173
Location: Missouri
287.90 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
.
.
.
Wow....
Who wrote the first "visible damage report" and who wrote the Estimate of repairs? (second estimate)
FK, |
|
FK
Senior member
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 290
Location: Pa.
41.08 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| It's not unusual at all... depending on the nature of the damage. It could have been a hard hit to a quarter panel or trunk area and damaged the frame. There is a lot of hidden damage in that case. An insurance appraiser could try to guess and guess and guess at what is needed or they could just wait for the vehicle to be torn down. Also, the type of vehicle is not mentioned. For a Lexus or Mercedes, etc. the price can jump very quickly. |
|
tcope
Forum Expert
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 5199
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
286.08 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
.
.
.
Come on... nearly 600% off with the first estimate!!
It looks to me like someone was very negligent with the first estimate.
It will be interesting to find out who wrote it.
FK, |
|
FK
Senior member
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 290
Location: Pa.
41.08 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | It looks to me like someone was very negligent with the first estimate. |
Possible... but what's the difference? |
|
tcope
Forum Expert
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 5199
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
286.08 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | It looks to me like someone was very negligent with the first estimate. |
More than likely the adjuster ''tagged'' the car, either at the accident scene, or in a tow lot, clearly prior to any tear down, there are many carriers that require a high percentage of the estimates to be written within 9-24-or 48 hours of the claim report...these estimates are just the obvious outter damage, then when the vehicle is in the shop and torn down a comprehensive estimate can be written...I personally handle a lot of these...an owner will not know for sure if they want it repaired etc...the rep will look at the vehicle in a drive way, the hood can't be opened (without risk of not being able to close it)...NO insurance adjuster can write to repair or replace ANYTHING without a photo showing the part is damage, which makes total sense...so then the owner decides to repair it, it goes to the shop is torn down and the estimate could jump as high as the sky....like T said, what makes the difference? It's paid, and in my case, I am the one writing that second or supplement estimate...again, you can't write it if you can't photo it, so if a bumper cover is in the back seat an adjuster can't write to replace the rebar, absorber, rear body panel whatever until it is accessible to be photo'd....it's that simple and happens many times daily...
_________________
"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr. |
|
Lori
Moderator
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8173
Location: Missouri
287.90 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
One thing I've been thinking about these past few days (from another... long thread) is that body shops write estimates. Estimates are documents that show what someone is going to _charge_ to perform certain work. In otherwords, you ask me how much I'm going to charge to perform some work and I give you my estimate. It's called an estimate as it's not a guaranteed charge.
An insurance company writes an appraisal. The insurance company is not writing up what they are charging for the repairs as they are no performing the repairs. A person can take the appraisal to someone who can perform the work and confirm that they will do the work listed for the amount listed. The nature of a repair party is to make a good profit on the work they perform. They are allowed to charge any amount they want for the repairs. The nature of the insurance company is to pay _only_ what is owed on a claim, which almost always means the least amount possible. When it comes to a vehicle, this means the insurance company is not going to _guess_ at what needs to be done, like a shop might. There is no reason to guess... it can only lead to paying too much for repairs (which no one expect the insurance company really cares about).
But an insurance company also needs to make sure that their payment is sufficient for the repairs. If someone points out that it's not, 99.999999% of the time the insurance company will simply make an additional payment. So... shops like to error on the side of charging too much (do they ever give this money back?) and insurance companies want to error on the side of paying too little (they can always make up the difference). Is either way, wrong? I'd have to say no.
As mentioned above, what difference does it make? |
|
tcope
Forum Expert
Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 5199
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
286.08 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | An insurance company writes an appraisal. |
Where I work (and worked) I write an estimate of repair...an appraisal for an ACV, it's just symatics really...I write what I think it will take to repair the vehicle per industry standards...then I go over it with the shop manager and just as many times I've caught things he's missed...but it is an 'estimate' same as a shop writes, when someone comes thru the door they say, ''I'd like an estimate to repair the damage to my vehicle'' and that is what they get...if they then schedule to bring in the vehicle, and the shop disassembles it and finds additional damage, (which by the way happens way more than 50% of the time) they call the owner or the adjuster depending on the shop and say, 'hey found some hidden damage, this darn header panel is cracked, gonna have to repair (or replace it) will cost an additional $125.00-million bucks...(pick one)...and the person on the other end says, 'ok, forget it, i'll be there within 24 hours to photo it, get the part ordered, send me a picture'' whatever the situation is....it's rarely a problem...the shops estimators do the exact same thing, they do not have x-ray vision anymore than a rep writing an estimate in someone's drive way does..
_________________
"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr. |
|
Lori
Moderator
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8173
Location: Missouri
287.90 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
.
.
.
Tcope,
The following part of your comment was interesting in that with a few word changes it could apply to both Questionable Repairer practices and Questionable Insurer practices.
""The nature of a repair party is to make a good profit on the work they perform. They are allowed to charge any amount they want for the repairs. The nature of the insurance company is to pay _only_ what is owed on a claim, which almost always means the least amount possible. When it comes to a vehicle, this means the insurance company is not going to _guess_ at what needs to be done,"
================
The nature of a insurer party is to make a good profit on the policies they sell. They are allowed to Appraise any amount they want for the repairs. The nature of the insurance company is to pay _only_ what is owed (or less) on a claim, which almost always means the **least amount possible**. When it comes to a vehicle, this means the insurance company is not going to _guess_ at what needs to be done, because that would increase their initial settlement offer.
Surely your not implying that a seasoned adjuster (or even a beginner) could look at an auto with over $11,000.oo in damage and not reasonable know the repairs will be much more than the $1900.oo initial offer of settlement to the vehicle owner.
But then... "As mentioned above, what difference does it make?"
Well lets see... in an less extreme example than the one above it can make a difference.
With today's economy [food, gas, taxes, utilities, insurance, etc.] coupled with Job losses, many people don't have the money to cover their $500 or even $1,000 deductibles. And often just accept the insurer's deliberately low initial "visible damage offer" and keep driving the auto without getting it repaired. Which in turn leaves the car owner without a clue they had just been hosed by their insurer's underpaid settlement.
But then tcope already knew all of the above and more.
Anyway... supplement or not, how could anyone see that $1900 offer as a "Good Faith" offer??
I could be (and likely am) mistaken but isn't that Visual Damage Report an Official first settlement offer?
FK, |
|
FK
Senior member
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 290
Location: Pa.
41.08 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | not reasonable know the repairs will be much more than the $1900.oo initial offer of settlement to the vehicle owner |
Fred, who said anything about an inital offer of settlement? Looks like a premlinary estimate that's all.... | Quote: | | Anyway... supplement or not, how could anyone see that $1900 offer as a "Good Faith" offer?? |
Again Fred where do you see offer anywhere? The OP said, | Quote: | | how is it possible for auto collision damage estimate jump fron 1992.00 to over 13k in 48 hours |
| Quote: | | With today's economy [food, gas, taxes, utilities, insurance, etc.] coupled with Job losses, many people don't have the money to cover their $500 or even $1,000 deductibles. And often just accept the insurer's deliberately low initial "visible damage offer" and keep driving the auto without getting it repaired. Which in turn leaves the car owner without a clue they had just been hosed by their insurer's underpaid settlement. |
I'll agree with you in part, but I have NEVER underwritten an estimate in 23 years...nor have I worked for a carrier that ask their adjusters too, granted I've only worked for two...Let me ask you though, how do you solve this problem? You have to conceed that a carrier will never pay for damages they cannot see or inspect, that's right in the contract, so they will never allow just guessing at a part being damaged...so what should we do as (like it or not) two industrys with mutal customers...oh wait if they aren't repairing then they aren't your customers...should we pay a shop two, three, four, six hours to tear a vehicle down, then maybe not be able to reassy the damaged vehicle so that we can see all the damage, and thus be sure we are paying for all that is damaged? Seriously what is the solution? | Quote: | | I could be (and likely am) mistaken but isn't that Visual Damage Report an Official first settlement offer? |
No, it's an 'inital' estimate and that's it....This vehicle was clearly non-driveable and somewhere other than being driven around....so it's no problem, it got to a shop got torn down, and the full scope of damage could be viewed...But let's say a guy has a minor rear end impact...now we all know that with urethan covers there are times, when the damage looks minimal, when indeed the absorber and rebar are hammers, and maybe more, there are further vehicles that after crawling under them the cover, extends all the way back blocking the view of these parts completely...so in this situation, I write to repair or replace whatever the rear cover, then tell the guy, 'look there is more than likely additional damage under this cover, however I can't see it, so I can evaluate it...don't know if parts need to be repair/replaced or if they are fine, so what you need to do, is take it to the shop of your choice give them a copy of my estimate, and tell them to call me when they tear it down if they find more damage or if they need anything other than what i have written BEFORE they repair it'' ... now if the guy doesn't do that, then what am I to do?
_________________
"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr. |
|
Lori
Moderator
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8173
Location: Missouri
287.90 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
'
'
'
Lori,
You state (in part) "No, it's an 'inital' estimate and that's it...."
When you give that 'initial' estimate to the car owner and they say OK... what ever, and you cut them a Check for your amount... what just happened??
To me that is "Offer" and "Acceptance".
"Done deal", if the car owner is never the wiser to the likely additional damage that was not written do to the insurer's sometimes money saving policy of writing only what you can see.
The OP's numbers are an fine example of how flawed the "Visible Damage Appraisal" is. And as long as Insurer's are Profiting by the use of the "Visible Damage Appraisal" they will do whatever it takes to protect the concept.
I don't foresee them ever coming forward and saying "Hey this "Visible Damage Appraisal" thing has the potential to hurt many loyal insured's. We have to find another way"
Nope... you won't see that without a Court Order.
FK, |
|
FK
Senior member
Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 290
Location: Pa.
41.08 Dollars($)
|
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | writing only what you can see. |
What do you recommend Fred? It's a visual inspection...there is no ''done deal'' in physical damage claims, (unless a total loss)...no release etc..(except rare occurances). I ask you again Fred, what is the solution? I'm being serious what is the solution?
_________________
"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr. |
|
Lori
Moderator
Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8173
Location: Missouri
287.90 Dollars($)
|
|
