Just take a look at case law and you will see that Farmers make a _lot_ of it.

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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:45 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
I know of others but this most likely won't satisfy you or serve to corroborate my assertions. I am sure you could look up the case she referenced to see if we were lying. We are all such liars at that board after all.
No thank you... when it comes to Farmers, I'll be there to help you push them over the edge of the cliff! My friend is a supervisor in one of their offices. I applied for a job there and an friends with another supervisor who left there (he later became my supervisor for a short while), so I know a lot of people who work there. I've also 'worked' on claims with Farmers adjusters. Just take a look at case law and you will see that Farmers make a _lot_ of it. Granted, they win a lot of those cases but it just shows you that they really push the envelope with what they do.
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:30 am   Post subject:   

OH Dave....sounds like ''some one'' is in a heap a trouble, boy for sure! Laughing

Quote:
I have been asked before how an adjuster can sit and look through a window out into a shop, and see work that is billed not being performed and I thought they must be in on the scam,
I would've wondered that too... Shocked
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but maybe I was wrong. Maybe they have been just quietly keeping track of it.
Sounds like it! I know that many times regarding in depth investigation, there is a long period of ''observation''.....
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Lets hope that is the case.
Sure sounds like it, likely gathering all the 'evidence'...WOW this could be HUGE!.....be sure and keep us updated....you don't have to say your state if you don't want to, can you atleast tell the 'area' of the country you are in or this is occuring?


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:59 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
It's all been documented in all the trade magazines of our industry
Same ones that market programs to manufactor fake invoices Mike? Complete with logos?



WOW, drug pushers, morphine drips...dude, you are some kind of drama queen. Rolling Eyes



tcope, you and I both know ''this'' guy...fortunately there aren't very many of ''them''...they make money off of lies, half truths, and attempts to instill fear in others, it's a sad sad exsistance. Setting in their little offices in front of computer screens all day typing away. Spreading misinformation in the hope that it will generate a few bucks....Remember when Mike first started posting here? AFter about a 40 or so posts I started seeing red flags, surrounding this diminished value topic...didn't take me long to find out (I love the web!) that you can't find a diminished value company that operates in MO that he doesn't work for! Did he openly say that? NEVER...not until I found it and posted it..and still skirts it even now! ..You just got to wonder how many other boards he is spreading his sticky little tenticals on....as the 'advocate' (hmm) of the down trodden....I call BS! tcope how much side line work do you get, or businesses do you have that you promote on this board? None ? me either!



Geeze, after reading so many of his posts, I need a shower, back in a while.


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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:44 pm   Post subject:   

geez louise, wash your potty mouth out with some soap while you are showering. I didn't come here to sell my services. I could care less if I write another DV report. My agenda is to expose some of the deception that some insurer portray. Those that squeal the loudest sometimes have the most to conceal.



DV is simply one leverage the vehicle owner knows they have in their corner to hold insurers feet to the fire to keep their investments pristine. If some insurer could get away with it, they would be using cardboard and paper mache to repair your car. If you'll look at how some of the new policies read, they only want to restore the functionallity and cosmetic appearance of a vehicle and not what is really owed pre-loss condition. That word haunts them.



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:57 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
I didn't come here to sell my services. I could care less if I write another DV report.
Well, we now know that is not true. You came here to promote DV, which is making you money. As you said _yourself_, we should not listen to you. Remember that?

Quote:
If you'll look at how some of the new policies read, they only want to restore the functionality and cosmetic appearance of a vehicle and not what is really owed pre-loss condition. That word haunts them.
Yup.. they got tired of putting money in the pockets of people who "claim" to be looking out for the consumer but were _really_ just making money for themselves. But then, the whole world is out to get you, Mike.



I don' think anyone here has said the insurance industry is perfect. Actually, people here who are in the industry typically give advise that helps posters and hurts insurance companies. There are some people who are just disgruntled people who have an ax to grind and _act_ like they are just here to help when indeed they are trying to promote their business.
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:24 pm   Post subject:   

Really T, give it a rest, I don't want you to pop a vein. I've no axe to grind. I just have to grind those a/m sheetmetal parts to make them fit. Sometimes even I have to use them when consumers sign hold harmless agreements in my contract and insurers won't use good parts. It's all about channeling liability.



Isn't that what insurers do when shops sign those agreements promising to hold their insurance partners harmless and promise to indemnify them for all losses against the use of the very parts they mandate you have to use? Let's not even talk about those busticated wheels that are being mandated. Insurers mandate the use of Aluminum alloy wheels that been remanufactured against the request of the Dealers because of the inherent dangers and lack of oversight in assuring their safety.



Data providers once started listing procedures to glue panels back together that the manufacturer said absolutely not. (Data providers are very heavily influenced by insurers, they are after all their customers in more substantial numbers). Insurers said well if the data providers are listing it, thats all we are going to pay for. Screw the insureds, we are saving them money after all, saftey be darned. Well enough backlash against another insurance savings strategy backfires and the policy had to be changed because some people like the posters at Pro D brought it to the publics attention.



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:38 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Let's not even talk about those busticated wheels that are being mandated. Insurers mandate the use of Aluminum alloy wheels that been remanufactured against the request of the Dealers because of the inherent dangers and lack of oversight in assuring their safety.
One word... Transwheel. Called them up and ask them how many of their wheels have failed. But how did we get on the subject of remanufactured wheels? Oh, that's right... your changing the subject again.



I have no doubt that were problems with entries in those systems. From what I understand, there still are (mainly labor times). I can't speak for most other people. I can only say that the people at the company I work for simply listen to the shop and alter the listings as needed. This is probably not typical.
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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:54 pm   Post subject:   

I'm done, out of here, made my point. Let the readers decide for themselves. Got to enjoy other things this weekend like a vintage car show.



It's been real and it's been fun, but I can't say it's been real fun.



Thanks for dialogue t.



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PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 9:42 pm   Post subject: I enjoyed that  

Thanks Tcope and Mike, I hope other readers found that as entertaining as I did. Lori, let's say anywhere USA, maybe that will keep them all on their toes. LOL. If I hear any more about it, I will let you know.


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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 3:52 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
I could care less if I write another DV report
LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing
Quote:
I don' think anyone here has said the insurance industry is perfect. Actually, people here who are in the industry typically give advise that helps posters and hurts insurance companies
He seemed to miss all those threads tcope where you and I and other adjusters have researched and tried our darndest to come up with answers to assist the poor people that do have a ligit complaint or are dealing with a night mare or an adjuster...there are some, we all know and have acknowledged that fact....and we have tried to help the poster NOT the carrier! But hey tcope did you get paid by the poster for that service? I didn't nor would I accept it...Did you tell them that you work for companies that will do an 'after repair' inspection (for a hefty fee)? Did I tell them I would 'review' their claim (again for a fee?)..no? hmmmmm...
Quote:
But how did we get on the subject of remanufactured wheels? Oh, that's right... your changing the subject again.
AGAIN, and still doesn't address key points brought up, or lies exposed.... Rolling Eyes but I'll play...

Quote:
against the request of the Dealers because of the inherent dangers and lack of oversight in assuring their safety.
Let's see an industry that sells parts 'requests' that you only buy new parts FROM THEM..hmmmmmm wonder why? oh yeah...so they can make more money!!!
Quote:
Data providers once started listing procedures to glue panels back together that the manufacturer said absolutely not.
Oh PA-LEEEEEEZZEE! You bet all the estimatic systems just throw that in there...whatever they want....without any thought...Mike you and I know that many many many shops are now (on some models) using this method of repair ....and it's an accepted and safe repair, (assuming of course that the shop and tech know what they are doing and using the proper adhesive, and there are still some welds you know that don't you?).....frankly on the ones I've written there isn't much savings at all once you figure in the kit...which is about 60 bucks, the labor rate is generally only 1-2 hours difference so I write em all conventional...but to make a statement that it's not allowed by the manufactor....
Quote:
Well enough backlash against another insurance savings strategy backfires and the policy had to be changed
What policy has changed regarding this? Better let Mitchell know...cause it's still in there many of the models I've seen (door skins, quarters)....
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I'm done, out of here,
I'll bet that doesn't hold up...
Quote:
made my point
You SURE did...
Quote:
Let the readers decide for themselves.
Got an intelligent bunch of readers around here, doubt they will have any trouble at all ......
Quote:
Got to enjoy other things this weekend like a vintage car show.
Hope you have a good time, and don't get rained out if outside...(bad bad storms again last night up here)...
Quote:
It's been real and it's been fun, but I can't say it's been real fun.
It's been REAL enlightening...
Quote:
Lori, let's say anywhere USA, maybe that will keep them all on their toes. LOL
Wink That's cool Dave...I understand...was just curious...
Quote:
If I hear any more about it, I will let you know._
Please do and I'll ask around as well when back to work....could be very interesting topic...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:24 pm   Post subject: Printed with permission of the author.  

Something to consider when you buy foreign imitation sheetmetal. Not only does it take away labor and products from a dying American Manufacturing community, you get poor imitation knockoff reproduction based on reverse engineering.





Part Piracy



Quote:
For years I have have wondered why auto manufacturers have allowed their designs to be copied and sold, depriving them of deserved income. Come to find out, most have not been patenting their designs. Lately, though, some manufacturers are challenging the unclear rules against making auto parts off limits to the band of pirates who simply copy other's hard work. More and more they are applying for design patents on their body parts. And, boy, does this approach have the lazy pirates squealing.





It cost car makers billions of dollars to design and begin manufacturing a new model. Hundreds of talented people–artists, engineers, tool makers, computer programmers, etc–will sometime spend years working on one production model, and possibly, many concept models, before a new car ends up in your local show room. Every one of the thousands of parts used in that vehicle must be separately conceived, designed, engineered and manufactured before the vehicle can be built. When you spend some time to really think about everything that goes into bringing a new vehicle design to market the task seems overwhelming.



So billions of dollars and millions of man hours have been invested in producing a product by an auto manufacturer, when along comes some little pirate who simply purchases some parts, makes cheap copies and sells them for sometimes half of what the original manufacturer sells them for. Does that seem fair to you? Why is OK to steal an idea and design from automobile makers and not from, say, an author? Try printing and selling copies of another author's book and see what happens. It can't be done. Why then do some people think it is alright to simply make copies of car parts and sell them?



Insurance companies and aftermarket parts associations will tell you that consumers benefit by counterfeit parts because it forces competition with the OEM's. If not for aftermarket parts, they say, repair costs and insurance rates would be much higher. Well so what? Why should repair costs and insurance rates be held down when book prices aren't. Don't readers have the same right to lower book prices?



When analyzed, arguments for aftermarket parts are plain asinine. Insurers have been using the fear of higher insurance premiums for decades to convince legislators that artificially controlling labor rates and repair costs, and allowing the piracy of crash parts is essential. But where is the argument for controlling the price of milk, bread, gasoline, electricity, heating oil, education cost and big screen televisions? Why are insurers so damned concerned with keeping insurance rates low? If insurers are so concerned with consumers' financial well being, why don't they lobby congress to help control the price of milk?



Auto manufacturers are finally getting fed up enough to fight for the right to profit from their hard work and investments. Like the collision repair industry, insurers have interfered with the natural marketplace of automobile parts, keeping costs artificially low for the sake of “consumers.” Your elected representatives suck this up knowing that the appearance of supporting higher prices for anything will get them thrown out at the next election. This is the effect of mob rule–of democracy. We are supposed to be a country governed by the rule of law. We are supposed to be a Republic. The term “Democracy” has been misused by certain people in this country since its birth. Our Republic was supposed to protect everyone equally through the rule of law, but over time we have allowed our Republic to deteriorate into a democracy. Democracies always favor the masses. In this case, the evil, rich corporations that bring us all the trappings of our indulgent lifestyles are those entities not being protected by the rule of law. The citizens' pocketbooks are more important than the rights of the corporations.



Auto manufacturers have the right to patent their designs and hard work, just like every other company or person. The courts are helping the music industry to stop people from copying music and selling it. They're putting people in jail for this. There are government task forces solely for stopping the importation of counterfeit clothing and electronics. Don't Americans deserve cheaper Polo shirts and cheaper Ipods? Isn't that an important consumer issue? Where is the insurance lobby on this issue? Are they hypocrites?



Insurance influence in our industry has led to the proliferation of counterfeit parts. But it has also led to the proliferation of body shops that should not exist. There are thousands of body shops in operation that wouldn't be today if it weren't for the interference of the insurance industry. Those of you who are feeding off the insurance nipple to survive are not contributing to the natural selection process of capitalism. You are not part of consumer choice or competition. You are part of the runaway power of political ambition that keeps insurers in power solely because of the insurers' ability to fund political partnerships. Without the political power you have helped insurers achieve, counterfeit parts would not be an issue. The law would protect auto manufactures as much as authors. You would not be forced to install inferior parts on your customer's vehicles.



Here's an idea, the next time your monthly bill arrives for your estimating software, call your insurance partners and ask them if they can help you find some counterfeit software for less money. Tell them it will help you keep your labor rate down. See if they can recommend a supplier.



Get permission to reprint this article in your publication.




---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------



Article printed from .: http://www.bodyshopsolutions.com/WordPress


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:31 am   Post subject:   

Did you secure this Mike?

Quote:
Get permission to reprint this article in your publication.
Just wondering...Mike is that just a post on that board?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:12 pm   Post subject:   

The link to the author's web site was posted in many discussion forums, permission was granted to reprint the entire article in this thread from the author.



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:37 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Something to consider when you buy foreign imitation sheetmetal
By imitation, you don't mean "fake' metal, right? By foreign you mean like the parts that Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, Subaru all use as OEM?

Quote:
Not only does it take away labor and products from a dying American Manufacturing community, you get poor imitation knockoff reproduction based on reverse engineering.
Playing the "American" card now, huh. It's getting old.

Quote:
It cost car makers billions of dollars to design and begin manufacturing a new model.
Billions...? To design one car? You quoted it, please provide facts to back up this statement.



I'll skip commenting on all the rest and mention some simple, bottom lines. Car Manufactures make money. They make most of their money not by selling their new vehicles but rather on maintaining them. This is done by having independent dealerships pay the manufacture for franchises and also, and here is the kicker, by selling replacement parts. We can all agree on this as it's simple, basic fact. Now, it's just a question of how much money they want to make and how they can accomplish this. Do we _AMERICAN_ consumers want to pay 5x what a part is really worth just to line the pockets of some greedy CEOs? Do we _AMERICANS_ want to pay 5x what a part is really worth so some guy putting a fender on a vehicle down an assembly line can make $100,000/year? I'm all for workers and their companies making a fair profit but not when it comes to _stealing_ money out of my pocket. This is _EXACTLY_ why the _AMERICAN_ government does not allow for most monopolies. It does not promote good commerce. The American system is based on free enterprise. This promotes healthy competition and benefits the consumer.



"Knock off" parts are nothing new. They have always been around. You simply have to go to the store and look on the shelves. You will see many brands of the same product.

Quote:
Insurance influence in our industry has led to the proliferation of counterfeit parts.
On what way? In that the insurance industry pays for most vehicle repairs. Insurance companies don't make the parts. We don't allow them to legally be sold. Mike, you yourself have stated that you have no problem with putting them on a vehicle is the owner wants them.

Quote:
Those of you who are feeding off the insurance nipple to survive are not contributing to the natural selection process of capitalism.
I'll ask the writer... try to get by one day without having any type of insurance. Let me know how long that day lasts. Truth is just the _opposite_... like it or not, insurance _allows_ commerce to exist! Without insurance commerce would simply and plainly, stop. Why? because no one person or one company could afford to pay their own liabilities. Clearly the writer is spouting incorrect information in an attempt to prove his point.

Quote:
Here's an idea, the next time your monthly bill arrives for your estimating software, call your insurance partners and ask them if they can help you find some counterfeit software for less money.
Counterfeit as in illegal or alternative (Mitchell, ADP, CCC, etc)? I'll ask the writer a question... would you rather only have one source for your estimating software and would you not mind paying 10x as much for it? Ouch! There is something he does not mention.



I'll ask anyone this... please show me where these aftermarket parts are illegal in the US.



I'll wait.



I've always said, and others have said it as well... I'd rather not have insurance companies use aftermarket parts. The trade off is that vehicle manufactures don't rape consumers with by inflating OEM prices. As mentioned before, when AM started coming out, OEM prices dropped about 300%!



I'll end with a quote from the writer:

" If not for aftermarket parts, they say, repair costs and insurance rates would be much higher. Well so what? Why should repair costs and insurance rates be held down when book prices aren't."



I think that sums it all up. As long as the shop is making tons of money, everyone else be damned. THAT is where this article is coming from.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:53 am   Post subject:   

Terrific post/comentary T...bravo



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