by msvarghese » Mon Aug 04, 2008 09:47 pm
My 1997 Toyota Corolla was in an accident recently in the Omaha, NE area (68128) and Progressive (my insurance company) "totaled" the car at $2, 520, which is far less than KBB value. This value supposedly includes all fees & taxes, and is still subject to my $250 deductible. This car has current KBB value of $3700.
We bought this car 2 years back from a local dealer for $4250 and in a months' time we had to spent $1750 for changing the transmission belt. I spent a lot on this car and finally according to Insurance people its valued only $2520.According to claim representative, this was totaled before as well which is an unknown fact to us. We had clean title from dealer and even Car fax didn't show that it was totaled. The surprising thing is that Progressive offered insurance quote based on a clean title. I don't know how would they change their records to double-totaled now when we are at receiving end.
We talked to the local dealer and he is still saying that our car was of clean title. At the same time, Progressive is going to send us report which shows it was salvaged. I do not know where to proceed further. I spent around $6000 on that car (excluding taxes) and the totaled value of $2520 can no way compensate that.
Please let me know how I can proceed further...or which is the best way to get the things cleared...
Thanks!
We bought this car 2 years back from a local dealer for $4250 and in a months' time we had to spent $1750 for changing the transmission belt. I spent a lot on this car and finally according to Insurance people its valued only $2520.According to claim representative, this was totaled before as well which is an unknown fact to us. We had clean title from dealer and even Car fax didn't show that it was totaled. The surprising thing is that Progressive offered insurance quote based on a clean title. I don't know how would they change their records to double-totaled now when we are at receiving end.
We talked to the local dealer and he is still saying that our car was of clean title. At the same time, Progressive is going to send us report which shows it was salvaged. I do not know where to proceed further. I spent around $6000 on that car (excluding taxes) and the totaled value of $2520 can no way compensate that.
Please let me know how I can proceed further...or which is the best way to get the things cleared...
Thanks!
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:12 am Post Subject:
Dave, I just looked at a collision repair from a large metropolitan area in my state performed by a first party insurance company preferred shop. The vehicle owner's own insurer suggested the shop as one of their best. They decided to go first party because the cooperation from the negligent party was non existent. Had to investigate, no rental til they decided to take responsibility for the claim even though it was witnessed by a policeman.
There is potential fraud involved on first party. The vehicle owner or insurance partner was billed for complete replacement of a structural panel but it was poorly sectioned and covered with undercoat. Really bad welds and unprotected welds with no corrosion treatment. There were some reconditioned parts placed on a 30,000 dollar 2008 vehicle with less than 5000 miles on it.
Looks like the shop may have to buy this car back before the vehicle owner can even claim DV against the negligent party so the shop can stay on the program of the best of the best repair shops in the area. I am sure this shop had to sign one of those silly agreements where they promised they would repair according the insurance partner's parameters rather than the manufacturer and to hold the insurer harmless for that. :roll:
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 09:56 am Post Subject:
Golly I just don't know where to start :? .
First, are there crappy companys, adjusters AND body shops out there? Yep, sure are and I've dealt with all of them...I have just as many horror story's as you do Mike, about horrific repairs done to vehicles....This isn't the carrier's fault this is the tech in the booth and his bosses fault...if you are going to blame an entire industry and say that all crappy repairs are a by-product of drp's then what was your excuse for crappy repairs years ago before any drp's? Don't say there weren't just as many because there were! I saw them too!
Dave, I've never been told that I have to do something that I couldn't live with, if I were I'd quit....I write every single sheet the exact way I'd fixed my own vehicle....
Again are there some bad company's yep, bad adjuster's yep, bad shop owners yep, bad crack head techs? yep...so what? I wish there wasn't but there are....same with bad doctors, lawyers, and servers in resturants....we all have crap in our own 'industry's ' that need cleaning up...to blame another industry for the crap in our own back yard, is not taking responsiblity for ourselves and attempting to better our lot rather than like a brat of a kid, blame everyone else but those who actually commit the 'sin' against our industry that you claim such passion for....instead you throw retoric that is non-sense...I've asked you this before Mike, what EXACTLY other than babbling have you done?
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 04:31 pm Post Subject:
The vehicle owner or insurance partner was billed for complete replacement of a structural panel but it was poorly sectioned and covered with undercoat. Really bad welds and unprotected welds with no corrosion treatment.
Sectioning whether performed by a DRP or independant shop is delicate and controversial repair method. Almost as controversial as clipping. Sectioning information from the vehicle manufacturers is not easily obtainable and oftentimes does not exist. Sectioning makes the sectioned piece either too strong or weaker than it was before. As far as I know crash testing has not been done on this procedure. Hopefully this procedure will eventually go away as the OEM's are beginning to sell ony complete unisides with no guidelines for sectioning rockers, pillars, quarters etc. The estimating programs still provide a sectioning time though. Complete uniside replacement is the only safe way to go as a rocker section repacement cut in at the wrong place and installed in a poor workmanship like manner could be disastrous in the event of a subsequent collision. This procedure appears to be quietly going away. I hope so.
Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 06:00 pm Post Subject:
that all crappy repairs are a by-product of drp's then what was your excuse for crappy repairs years ago before any drp's? Don't say there weren't just as many because there were! I saw them too!
You can say there have not alway been drps, but there have always been repairs that went directly to the corrupt shops that greased the palms of dirty appraisers. They just decided to make it more formal by creating drp programs.
Maybe the beancounters weren't getting their share, so they decided to make if more formal with contracts. This is where you are required to grease the palm metaphorically, or such as money in envelopes as mister groebner of illinois received to ensure shops remained on preferred lists, or simply agreed to concessions of working cheaper and faster,and passing along parts and labor discounts, promising to use imitation parts when available, and no fees for processing total losses; these being a few of the free services to belong to the partner's club.
These factors have led to slave shops having to maintain good grades with their partners, working faster which leads to cutting corners (sectioning or not doing what you were paid to do), Why do shops that continue to defraud consumers and their partners remain on those programs? Insurers are stuck with a system they created to maximize their profits and to CONTROL their perceived bleeding of profits
instead you throw retoric that is non-sense...I've asked you this before Mike, what EXACTLY other than babbling have you done?
I am one of many collision repair people who are not afraid to expose the flaws in my own industy's desire to partner with insurers because they are too lazy to do their own marketing and developing their own clientel. I am not afraid to expose poor quality repairs and fraud that get rewarded because of cost savings to insurers. I do not live in fear of losing work because I don't go along to get along. I do not have to pay money for or buy my customers.
Too many shops find it easier to grease the palm or pay the pimp. Members in our industry and Attorney Ms Eversmen are developing a Code of Ethics that all shops should aspire to if they were not hamstrung by agreements that prohibits certain qualities with repair procedures.
Get insurers out of the repair business, let the collision industry develope their own code of ethics, and make sure insurers do not reward bad behavior. Create your own repair monitoring program for consumer complaints and confront fraud by hiring true experts in body repair that can expose the fraud and poor repairs. Allow authorities to prosecute shops that are in violation and prosecute insurers that tortously interfere with repairers rights to contract, and encourage enforcement of the unfair claims practices acts of every state with severe penalties designed to punish violaters instead of slapping them on the wrist.
Now am I babbling or just bald face lying again?
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:13 am Post Subject:
You can say there have not alway been drps, but there have always been repairs that went directly to the corrupt shops that greased the palms of dirty appraisers. They just decided to make it more formal by creating drp programs
See Mike here you go crossing that line again...are their dirty appraisers yes, probably there are....damn few though, anyone getting kick backs would be immediately fired...but to take the leap that dirty appraisers taking kickbacks from dirty shops have just make it offical by calling them drp's is inferring that all are dirty....and non-sense...you just can't take it that no body wants you wonder why? :? See what I mean about your inability to accept responsiblity at all? geeeeeeeze that's just plain non-sense........so now crappy repairs prior to drps are the fault of sleazy appraisers? dude seriously, you're messed up...For the umpteenth time...the company I work for doesn't ask any of those things from shops, period...the one and only drp contract you produced after asserting the ton's of them you have...said nothing at all about the things you claim they say...big giant stamp with a huge "B.S." on it...bam, wrong again Mike, with your own 'proof'...unless and until you can prove these things I'd wish you'd play like a big boy and stop saying these things that are untrue...
Why do shops that continue to defraud consumers and their partners remain on those programs? Insurers are stuck with a system they created to maximize their profits and to CONTROL their perceived bleeding of profits
Wrong again, any shop that is is caught defrauding a customer would not only be immediately removed from the program but all information turned over to the prosecutors office..I do not have to pay money for or buy my customers.
And who pays money for their customers mike? :roll:Members in our industry and Attorney Ms Eversmen are developing a Code of Ethics that all shops should aspire to if they were not hamstrung by agreements that prohibits certain qualities with repair procedures.
Lot of teeth in that! There's a big black (generally) book that has all you need as an individual for a code of conduct we 'should' all aspire too as well Mike, perhaps you've heard of it? Lot harsher penality though for not listening...what exactly is the penalty for not? also who is going to police this? and you are saying no shops that have any drp's will be welcome? cause..they can't have ethics or what?So your solution is to give the shops (all shops) a blank check? never happen...too many crooks..not just in the repair industry but all industrys...you may very well not pad an estimate, but also very well know how many do..never ever happen...
Now am I babbling or just bald face lying again?
bothPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 03:19 pm Post Subject:
You're a good company loyalist and defender, I would expect nothing less from you when confronted with the truth.
I did not say all drp's are evil or dirty, the concept and practice creates the potential and actual fraud in the industry.
I advocate accountability, I see nothing but protectors and apologists on your side for the consumer fraud.
It takes two to tango, and insurers know the steps along with many corrupt or struggling shop owners.
I never desired to be on a drp program and never applied, why would I want someone pulling my strings and interfering with my ability to advocate for my consumer.
Really lori, I almost spit my coffee out on that one. There are shops paying to be on programs, and shops asking on discussion forums how they can get on these programs because they face so much steering, they do not know how to market themselves. They want to suck on the sows teat. Woe is them.
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 09:53 pm Post Subject:
How about when a tow company pays a city $100,000 a year to be on rotation so that they can capture 30 day holds and charge the vehicle owner (consumer?) $40 per day storage . Usually for a no license or no insurance infraction. I don't think the insurance companies are doing anything worse than whats already being done. The autobody industry is going the way of the medical industry, tow industry and really wherever insurance is involved. Everthing is going direct repair. America: Of, by and for the corporation.
I hear independant body shops crying about the drp situation and then will try to get on police rotation to get some accident scene tows , but once they find out how much their city wants for a contract a drp doesn't sound half bad.
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:50 am Post Subject:
the concept and practice creates the potential and actual fraud in the industry
Such as? Which industry and what fraud?I advocate accountability, I see nothing but protectors and apologists on your side for the consumer fraud.
How are you advocating accountablility Mike, when you say crappy collision repairs are not the fault of the body shop, owner, or tech rather the fault of drp's, and prior to drp's the blame laid squarely at the feet of sleazy appraiser? How are you accepting accountability in those statement? Sounds just like blaming another for your own transgression to me....(I of course do not mean you, rather 'you' as your industry)...Really lori, I almost spit my coffee out on that one. There are shops paying to be on programs, and shops asking on discussion forums how they can get on these programs because they face so much steering, they do not know how to market themselves. They want to suck on the sows teat. Woe is them.
Who when what and where Mike? What insurance company accepts money (that's what ''pay '' means) to be on ANY drp ? I'd love to see that document! don't happen Mike....I agree if someone doesn't know how to run their own business...well they are in the wrong business period....
How about when a tow company pays a city $100,000 a year to be on rotation so that they can capture 30 day holds and charge the vehicle owner (consumer?) $40 per day storage
That's just plain crazy...is that a fee that the city actually collects from them for this 'privledge'? Man, oh man...I'll bet that town has some crazy high tow bills...The town I live in let's anyone on the list, after passing some basic requirements (ins. license checks etc)..AND, they limit the amount they can charge...which thrills us to pieces....50 miles south of me (Kansas city), it's pure mayhem! nuts at accident scenes...How is it also any different that shops paying a fee of say 25-50 bucks a car for everyone towed to their lot? Happens thousands of times a day...no one says a word about it...
Get this...got this one today...insured is in an intersection accident...the tow trucks are a swarming...they agree to get hooked to one that is well lets say less than honest...they tow it to another nationally recognized chain that is a franchise, (not corp. owned shop)...insured wants to move the vehicle to drp shop...now get this....the vehicle totaled based on a 1146.00 tow bill, then had another 133 dollar tow bill to tow it to the drp that was three times farther than the accident scene to this shop...how? they actually put a $500.00 ''sublet, steering fee" on the bill...that's ok, we've paid it, have a couple of shops pulling this non-sense that will soon get suit papers....now you tell me how is that not ransome, then extortion when they will drop the 500 fee if they fix the car? This owner isn't given a chose...(course they don't have to pay it the ins. company does, and I feel certain they will get that back then some)....explain how that is benefiting anyone? Now this persons vehicle is a total loss, had tons of prior damage on it, they will be so upside down it's not even close to funny...all thanks to a crooked shop and tow company....Way to protect that consumer, Mr. I'm an independent shop, blah blah blah... :roll: It's criminal.
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 01:59 am Post Subject:
Tow bills have gotten out of control in So. Ca. also.
Some insurance companies have just put a $300 limit on tow bills. There is nothing in the policy that says a tow bill must be paid on a collision claim and if the insured does not have towing coverage which requires a seperate premium then that only reinforces the limit. When the tow company or yard is advised of the limit the bill miracuously comes to exactly $300. If an insured has to go down to the yard to pay anything over the $300 limit the bill always seems to get reduced to a normal charge and not an extra $250 charged to pick up a bumper at the scene which only gets thrown into the back seat and either soiling or tearing the seat.
Excerpt:
The city contracts with four towing companies to haul and store impounded vehicles. Each company paid the city $37,500 a year for the contracts between 2004 and 2007.
In September 2007, the city more than doubled its contract fees. Each company had to pay $75,000 in 2007-08 and $100,000 in 2008-09.
The companies appear willing to pay because of the lucrative returns from the towing and storage charges
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 02:13 am Post Subject:
There is nothing in the policy that says a tow bill must be paid on a collision claim and if the insured does not have towing coverage which requires a seperate premium then that only reinforces the limit.
While there is nothing specific, it's implied at least. The policy states, in other terms, that it will pay to repair the vehicle. Obviously the vehicle needs to be moved to a repair center to accomplish this. The insurance policy is an adheasion contract. Any court would find the insurance company responsible for the towing expense.Add your comment