damn few though, anyone getting kick backs would be immediately fired.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:13 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
You can say there have not alway been drps, but there have always been repairs that went directly to the corrupt shops that greased the palms of dirty appraisers. They just decided to make it more formal by creating drp programs
See Mike here you go crossing that line again...are their dirty appraisers yes, probably there are....damn few though, anyone getting kick backs would be immediately fired...but to take the leap that dirty appraisers taking kickbacks from dirty shops have just make it offical by calling them drp's is inferring that all are dirty....and non-sense...you just can't take it that no body wants you wonder why? Confused See what I mean about your inability to accept responsiblity at all? geeeeeeeze that's just plain non-sense........so now crappy repairs prior to drps are the fault of sleazy appraisers? dude seriously, you're messed up...



For the umpteenth time...the company I work for doesn't ask any of those things from shops, period...the one and only drp contract you produced after asserting the ton's of them you have...said nothing at all about the things you claim they say...big giant stamp with a huge "B.S." on it...bam, wrong again Mike, with your own 'proof'...unless and until you can prove these things I'd wish you'd play like a big boy and stop saying these things that are untrue...
Quote:
Why do shops that continue to defraud consumers and their partners remain on those programs? Insurers are stuck with a system they created to maximize their profits and to CONTROL their perceived bleeding of profits
Wrong again, any shop that is is caught defrauding a customer would not only be immediately removed from the program but all information turned over to the prosecutors office..

Quote:
I do not have to pay money for or buy my customers.
And who pays money for their customers mike? Rolling Eyes
Quote:
Members in our industry and Attorney Ms Eversmen are developing a Code of Ethics that all shops should aspire to if they were not hamstrung by agreements that prohibits certain qualities with repair procedures.
Lot of teeth in that! There's a big black (generally) book that has all you need as an individual for a code of conduct we 'should' all aspire too as well Mike, perhaps you've heard of it? Lot harsher penality though for not listening...what exactly is the penalty for not? also who is going to police this? and you are saying no shops that have any drp's will be welcome? cause..they can't have ethics or what?



So your solution is to give the shops (all shops) a blank check? never happen...too many crooks..not just in the repair industry but all industrys...you may very well not pad an estimate, but also very well know how many do..never ever happen...

Quote:
Now am I babbling or just bald face lying again?
both


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:19 pm   Post subject:   

You're a good company loyalist and defender, I would expect nothing less from you when confronted with the truth.



I did not say all drp's are evil or dirty, the concept and practice creates the potential and actual fraud in the industry.



I advocate accountability, I see nothing but protectors and apologists on your side for the consumer fraud.



It takes two to tango, and insurers know the steps along with many corrupt or struggling shop owners.



I never desired to be on a drp program and never applied, why would I want someone pulling my strings and interfering with my ability to advocate for my consumer.



Really lori, I almost spit my coffee out on that one. There are shops paying to be on programs, and shops asking on discussion forums how they can get on these programs because they face so much steering, they do not know how to market themselves. They want to suck on the sows teat. Woe is them.



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:53 pm   Post subject:   

How about when a tow company pays a city $100,000 a year to be on rotation so that they can capture 30 day holds and charge the vehicle owner (consumer?) $40 per day storage . Usually for a no license or no insurance infraction. I don't think the insurance companies are doing anything worse than whats already being done. The autobody industry is going the way of the medical industry, tow industry and really wherever insurance is involved. Everthing is going direct repair. America: Of, by and for the corporation.



I hear independant body shops crying about the drp situation and then will try to get on police rotation to get some accident scene tows , but once they find out how much their city wants for a contract a drp doesn't sound half bad.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:50 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
the concept and practice creates the potential and actual fraud in the industry
Such as? Which industry and what fraud?
Quote:
I advocate accountability, I see nothing but protectors and apologists on your side for the consumer fraud.
How are you advocating accountablility Mike, when you say crappy collision repairs are not the fault of the body shop, owner, or tech rather the fault of drp's, and prior to drp's the blame laid squarely at the feet of sleazy appraiser? How are you accepting accountability in those statement? Sounds just like blaming another for your own transgression to me....(I of course do not mean you, rather 'you' as your industry)...
Quote:
Really lori, I almost spit my coffee out on that one. There are shops paying to be on programs, and shops asking on discussion forums how they can get on these programs because they face so much steering, they do not know how to market themselves. They want to suck on the sows teat. Woe is them.
Who when what and where Mike? What insurance company accepts money (that's what ''pay '' means) to be on ANY drp ? I'd love to see that document! don't happen Mike....



I agree if someone doesn't know how to run their own business...well they are in the wrong business period....
Quote:
How about when a tow company pays a city $100,000 a year to be on rotation so that they can capture 30 day holds and charge the vehicle owner (consumer?) $40 per day storage
That's just plain crazy...is that a fee that the city actually collects from them for this 'privledge'? Man, oh man...I'll bet that town has some crazy high tow bills...The town I live in let's anyone on the list, after passing some basic requirements (ins. license checks etc)..AND, they limit the amount they can charge...which thrills us to pieces....50 miles south of me (Kansas city), it's pure mayhem! nuts at accident scenes...



How is it also any different that shops paying a fee of say 25-50 bucks a car for everyone towed to their lot? Happens thousands of times a day...no one says a word about it...



Get this...got this one today...insured is in an intersection accident...the tow trucks are a swarming...they agree to get hooked to one that is well lets say less than honest...they tow it to another nationally recognized chain that is a franchise, (not corp. owned shop)...insured wants to move the vehicle to drp shop...now get this....the vehicle totaled based on a 1146.00 tow bill, then had another 133 dollar tow bill to tow it to the drp that was three times farther than the accident scene to this shop...how? they actually put a $500.00 ''sublet, steering fee" on the bill...that's ok, we've paid it, have a couple of shops pulling this non-sense that will soon get suit papers....now you tell me how is that not ransome, then extortion when they will drop the 500 fee if they fix the car? This owner isn't given a chose...(course they don't have to pay it the ins. company does, and I feel certain they will get that back then some)....explain how that is benefiting anyone? Now this persons vehicle is a total loss, had tons of prior damage on it, they will be so upside down it's not even close to funny...all thanks to a crooked shop and tow company....Way to protect that consumer, Mr. I'm an independent shop, blah blah blah... Rolling Eyes It's criminal.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:59 am   Post subject:   

Tow bills have gotten out of control in So. Ca. also.



Some insurance companies have just put a $300 limit on tow bills. There is nothing in the policy that says a tow bill must be paid on a collision claim and if the insured does not have towing coverage which requires a seperate premium then that only reinforces the limit. When the tow company or yard is advised of the limit the bill miracuously comes to exactly $300. If an insured has to go down to the yard to pay anything over the $300 limit the bill always seems to get reduced to a normal charge and not an extra $250 charged to pick up a bumper at the scene which only gets thrown into the back seat and either soiling or tearing the seat.



Excerpt:

The city contracts with four towing companies to haul and store impounded vehicles. Each company paid the city $37,500 a year for the contracts between 2004 and 2007.



In September 2007, the city more than doubled its contract fees. Each company had to pay $75,000 in 2007-08 and $100,000 in 2008-09.



The companies appear willing to pay because of the lucrative returns from the towing and storage charges

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:13 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
There is nothing in the policy that says a tow bill must be paid on a collision claim and if the insured does not have towing coverage which requires a seperate premium then that only reinforces the limit.
While there is nothing specific, it's implied at least. The policy states, in other terms, that it will pay to repair the vehicle. Obviously the vehicle needs to be moved to a repair center to accomplish this. The insurance policy is an adheasion contract. Any court would find the insurance company responsible for the towing expense.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:17 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
Really lori, I almost spit my coffee out on that one. There are shops paying to be on programs, and shops asking on discussion forums how they can get on these programs because they face so much steering, they do not know how to market themselves. They want to suck on the sows teat. Woe is them.
Simply another claim you cannot back up.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:22 pm   Post subject:   

Located at autobodyonline.com main discussion group Someone is always trying to find out how to get on these programs and others warn them not to. As usual T is wrong again. Not going to dig them all up for you but this forum is chalked full of people trying to find ways to bolster their income by getting on Drps because they are steered so hard against.



Quote:
Hello all, I own a shop located in Southern California. I have been at this location for over nine years, with zero problems/complaints and lots of repeat customers. However, recently I have been trying to acquire DRPs and it has not been going so well. ALL the insurance companies have either told me "we are not currently adding anyone at this time" or "there is a shop too close in your area already" Is there nothing I can do and just leave it at that, or what are my options? Some of the other shops in the area get DRPS at will it seems, are they "greasing" palms or how is it so easy for them and all I hear are the above two comments without even

setting up a meeting/seeing our shop? ANY insight is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance!




This is an analysis from an insurance attorney on of a recent posting of yours regarding your subrogation rights.





My post

Quote:
This is the logic of one adjuster who claims to handle fraud cases arrived at how Progressive could sue the shop when I posed the same question.



"Again, I'm not sure you understand the simple principle of transferring the right of recovery. It's easy to see that the customer could file the suit against the body shop. Anyone can assume this right from the customer (it's done in recovery all the time... debts get sent to collection agencies and attorneys all the time). The insurance company has a contract with the insured that states they assume the insured's right of recovery for anything they pay for. So the transfer of recovery is automatic. That is probably one reason why Progressive paid the bill in full... so they could file the suit in the first place."



Maybe Advocate could elaborate if this statement is in fact true.




Attorney's response

Quote:
Mike, your “friend” is confusing “subrogation” with “assignment”. Although the two legal concepts are similar, they are not the same. Typically, “fraud” claims cannot be assigned.



In this case, “subrogation” could not apply either unless the regressive insured claimed some wrong had been committed by North Shore. I don't believe that the insured has ever alleged such a thing.



Thus, absent some finely worded “insurance fraud” statute governing, unless regressive can claim a contractual relationship with North Shore (which as I have covered many times previously should never ever happen with a body shop if the shop owner has half a brain), it (regressive) is left with really only one choice: file suit against both its insured and the shop alleging some sort of fraud conspiracy. It did not do that here.



Nevertheless, as I stated previously, because it took a couple of years and until the seventh or eighth day of trial to figure out this “technicality”, regressive made its point.



In my opinion, Greg should be asking some very tough questions of his attorneys.



In the meantime, let us hope regressive is satiated.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:37 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Some of the other shops in the area get DRPS at will it seems, are they "greasing" palms or how is it so easy for them and all I hear are the above two comments without even setting up a meeting/seeing our shop?
So your proof is someone who is quite clear that they are simply guessing that some shops pay off insurance companies to become DRPs? Laughable.

Quote:
In this case, “subrogation” could not apply either unless the regressive insured claimed some wrong had been committed by North Shore. I don't believe that the insured has ever alleged such a thing.
From the above I think two things are true... the attorney can only guess at the situation as it appears he/she does not know the full story and 2, Progressive _IS_ alleging North Shore commited an illegal act. That is the who point in the suit. I don't remember all the details but I don't think Progressive was alleging insurance fraud. But why are we even discussing this? Progressive _IS_ suing the shop, that is the simple fact. So I fail to see why we are debating weather or not Progressive has this right. If they did not, the case would have been dismissed on under Summary Judgment. Are we going to start that thread all over again here? Feel free to place it in a new thread.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:35 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
So your proof is someone who is quite clear that they are simply guessing that some shops pay off insurance companies to become DRPs? Laughable.




The proof is the allstate adjuster groebner who was prosecuted for accepting greased money. Sad part is it took the federal government to prosecute him for income tax evasion to expose the act. The industry couldn't or wouldn't discipline him. Is he one of many employees of insurers, the tip of the ice berg, or as Lori implies a rare exception to the rule? Who knows!



You questioned whether anyone was asking how to get on the program and I provide one example. You're never satisfied even when you get the proof.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:02 pm   Post subject:   

So when you say shops are "paying" to become DRPs, you don't mean that isnurance companies _charge_ for this type of thing nor do insurance -companies_ collect money for this type of thing... only that in some rare cases some individuals accept bribes. If so, I have no doubt that goes on. You don't think it goes on in every company every day? But who is to blame for this? I'd say it's the shops fault as much as the insurance employee (not the insurance company)! So while you _love_ to point a finger at insurance companies... you seem to always forget to point the finger at the body shop "industry" (what do you do for a living again?).



Do you have 100% control over your employees, Mike? What about if you employed 10,000 people... would you be able to know if any of them were taking money under the table? Again, you make it sound like insurance _companies_ have a practice of charging shops to become DRPs. I think this is pretty underhanded. You critizize insurance companies for being misleading but then you pull crap like this.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:08 pm   Post subject:   

In the final analysis, soon most auto policies will be purchased online eliminating agents and most repairs will be done by DRP's and insurance owned shops thereby eliminating most shop owners and appraisers. Hopefully all the money saved by Progressive will not be spent on the Progressive Art Collection and the money saved by AIG will not be squandered on worthless CDO's losing billions of dollars for the last three quarters. The markets will be flooded by new insurance companies popping up everywhere as it will be easier than ever to start an insurance company. All of the talent will move on to other fields of employment and the cost of auto repair will begin to soar as there will not be enough shops left to handle the volume. The consumer loses this one too. Glenn Renwick and Robert F. Orlich will be O.K.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:26 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
I'd say it's the shops fault as much as the insurance employee (not the insurance company)! So while you _love_ to point a finger at insurance companies... you seem to always forget to point the finger at the body shop "industry" (what do you do for a living again?).




You get no argument from me on that, I believe those that grease the palm are co-conspirators or contribute to an appraisers temptation to pad his income. No body would take the bait if someone fishing didn't present the offer.



Quote:
Do you have 100% control over your employees, Mike? What about if you employed 10,000 people... would you be able to know if any of them were taking money under the table? Again, you make it sound like insurance _companies_ have a practice of charging shops to become DRPs. I think this is pretty underhanded. You critizize insurance companies for being misleading but then you pull crap like this.




I am one hundred percent liable for the actions of my employees shouldn't insurers be? Insurers micro-manage our industry, you are full of the same crap you claim I pull, if you think that they do not have an accounting of every insurance penny spent and the cost of expenses in the accounting books. They can account for every penny paid, every part used, every part that should have been used of their drp partners. Those shops receive grade cards and they keep the cards on those that are not their partners. They crunch numbers and bean counters count the beans. They are in the business of liability, accountability,probability, and deniability sometimes.







Most DRP programs require concessions of some sort, if you don't charge for something that anyone not on a program charges for, you're still buying referrals by giving concessions and agreements even though no money changes hands.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:04 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
"we are not currently adding anyone at this time" or "there is a shop too close in your area already" Is there nothing I can do and just leave it at that, or what are my options? Some of the other shops in the area get DRPS at will it seems, are they "greasing" palms or how is it so easy for them and all I hear are the above two comments without even

setting up a meeting/seeing our shop? ANY insight is greatly appreciated, thanks in advance!
Your 'proof' is hysterical! Mike I've said these exact things to shops...company's operate differently some will let all that want to be on their programs on...while others (like my company) do not and have a set number (based on the amount of volumn the shop can handle) in a set geographical area...if we let any and all on (first of all we're backing their work so that ain't happen')...then where would the volumn be for the others? Sorry dude that was just dumb as proof, a guy asked a question and that's proof? Rolling EyesLaughingLaughing



And what did all that with your friend the lady attorney have to do with this?
Quote:
You questioned whether anyone was asking how to get on the program and I provide one example. You're never satisfied even when you get the proof
When did anyone ask that question? I could've answered that I get about five calls a week wanting to know how to get on our program...so? what's your point? People ask every day what's for dinner too...what on earth does it prove that people want to get on drp's other than you're fighting against the tide, and shops are begging to get on drp's CONSTANTLY...
Quote:
Hopefully all the money saved by Progressive will not be spent on the Progressive Art Collection and the money saved by AIG will not be squandered on worthless CDO's losing billions of dollars for the last three quarters
LaughingLaughingLaughingRolling Eyes I'm with ya' brother...hope all the company's give their adjusters raises instead! Rolling Eyes yep, that'll happen... Wink



Quote:
Glenn Renwick and Robert F. Orlich will be O.K.
Laughing no question about that! Laughing



Quote:
Those shops receive grade cards and they keep the cards on those that are not their partners.
Not where I work...
Quote:
Most DRP programs require concessions of some sort, if you don't charge for something that anyone not on a program charges for, you're still buying referrals by giving concessions and agreements even though no money changes hands.
I just KNEW that's where you would wind this around too..just like all adjusters getting kick backs...then you backed that down to 'well, they get raises right'? Rolling Eyes Now pullin' the same garbage...make over inflated, lies as statements, then back down, to this...it's a damn shame mike really, if you have to do this, don't you see at all how you lose credability?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:13 pm   Post subject:   

The sad fact of the matter is that insurance companies treat their own worse than shops. No taking care of your own in the claims dept. Not sure why that is.

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