3:00am + loud noise = Bad morning! Adjusters help!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:55 pm   Post subject:   

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Is this car drivable?





Quote:
"We do not have a rental car at this time, but as soon as the repairs begin we will receive the rental car. ”.






The above seems a little odd..??



One would think if a car isn't drivable they should have a Rental from Day One. Not after repairs begin.



Its my understanding that one's loss begins at the moment of impact along with a Rental car when the car in not drivable.



Not at the moment of beginning Repairs??



That would only make sense of the car was safe to drive while waiting for repairs to begin. In which case you and the Repairer would be able to Check & Test the Transmission.



Personally.... I'd demand Rental Payment retroactive to the date of the accident.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:57 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
She spoke to a manager today and finally found out what was going on. They are sending an "expert" out to estimate the damages tomorrow. He is going to call with the results. So this is the guy that I need to talk to I'm guessing.




The shop that is going to repair your car, if you authorize those repairs, should be the expert and your advocate for what is best in your situation. It sounds like the shop that has your car has the insurer's and their own best interest in mind, in my opinion. The expert they are waiting to inspect the vehicle is not likely a repair expert, but an expert in determining what the insurer is willing to pay based on the combined knowledge of the shop repairing the vehicle and the person who controls the company's checkbook. They are most likely going to make an educated guess that if they start repairs as to whether they will be able to complete the repairs under the threshold.



It is still your property and only you can make the decision on whether your car is repaired or not. The insurer can only authorize the funds be released to repair your vehicle if you so desire. If I were in your situation as the property owner, I would first hire a pro consumer shop owner to inspect the damage from your perpective and his as an expert. Chances are they have seen very similar damages on a number of similarly constructed vehicles. They will be able to provide you an estimate of repairs that may more accurately reflect all costs associated in the restoration of your vehicle and possibly the likelihood of expectant earlier and premature failure of other associated parts connected to the damaged ones.



Again, since it is your property, you could elect to sell the salvage to the highest bidder yourself. It is possible that the salvage value with a good title would bring a high resale value. It is possible that you may come out better taking the cost of repairs and salvage value yourself, but I can assure you that you will lose one third to one half the trade in value should you elect to sell after the repairs are completed. The National Independent Automobile Dealers Association has put in writing that they use twenty five percent immediate depreciation as a beginning point for appraising the value of your trade. It is likely that you would be made an offer of half of what you expect to recieve on trade and twentyfive to fifty percent of retail value if you should sell to a private party.



If they choose to proceed with repairs after you have made your intent known that you prefer it to be totaled, I would let the shop know in writing that you intend to have a post repair inspection by a disinterested third party expert to ascertain that there was no fraud in the repairs, no damage left unrepaired and all damage was restored to pre accident condition. Any failure to be able to perform this repair and not meet your expectation could result in a repair related diminishment of value that both the shop and possibly the insurer could be liable for if the insurer refused to pay for any repair that would prohibit a pre-accident restoration of your vehicle. This type of DV is owed on first party claims either by the insurer or the shop. It is not inherent DV. A judge can decide whether it was the shop that failed to perform the necessary repairs since they are experts, or the insurer failed to pay under contract for required and necessary repairs. The shop can not say in court, that the insurer failed to pay for necessary repairs so they couldn't do them. It is their job to ascertain all the damage since it is the court that deems they are experts and insurers only pay for repairs.



If you choose to repair your vehicle, be sure to ask for a copy of the repair warranty from both the shop and the insurer if they claim to have one. Be sure of what could be included and attributed to the accident if additional squeaks, rattles, leaks, malfunctions, windnoises, misalignments, door sagging , paint failures, chipping, premature wear not covered under factory warranty, mechanical failures are found in a resonable period of time following the repairs or accident.



I recently found an additional 2500 in repairs and re-repairs that were overlooked or poorly repaired at an insurer direct repair shop that was on the preferred list of the insurer. The shop was required to re-repair the damage to the satisfaction of the vehicle owner. The owner requested the totaling of the vehicle before the repairs. The damage sounded very similar to yours. Six months later it is in the shop for additional repairs such as a hub bearing and strut that the shop claims is under normal warranty and the dealer claims is not, and the owner is caught in the middle with no help from the insurer.



Good luck with which ever choice you make as the owner.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:58 pm   Post subject:   

The above response was mine, Mike of the Ozarks. I was logged in but it posted it as a guest.



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:44 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
The above response was mine, Mike of the Ozarks.
I'd have NEVER guessed that! Wink



Quote:
It is still your property and only you can make the decision on whether your car is repaired or not.
Agreed, but it not his decision if the vehicle is 'repairable' or totaled...More than likely that is the 'expert' he is talking about...
Quote:
possibly the likelihood of expectant earlier and premature failure of other associated parts connected to the damaged ones.
Mike, you know no carrier can pay for 'maybe' damage...And if I understood the OP at all this thing has the frt suspension and steering knocked out of it...his concern (mostly) is that given it was shoved a great distance in park that the tranny could have damage, and it certainly is possible. But you wouldn't fork over money on 'possible' damage either. That's (IMO) what needs to be addressed, most certainly if this vehicle needs a tranny, it's boned...
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I would first hire a pro consumer shop owner to inspect the damage from your perpective and his as an expert.
I don't understand why he would want to pay out of his pocket for anything...and no OP you will most certainly NOT get that 'fee' reimbursed. It's really quite easy if you think about it (and no cost to him)...to insist the tranny be inspected by someone qualified to do that inspection (usually NOT a body shop)...if there are issues with the transmission they should address them on the front end of this repair, (or asap, they can get it to roll) especially given his state has a percentage total loss threshold on the books...I just don't get him forking over a ''fee'' to someone when it shouldn't cost him a nickle to get it inspected...Surely there is a Hyundai dealership/service dept in the area. The carrier is on the hook for that inspection...
Quote:
Again, since it is your property, you could elect to sell the salvage to the highest bidder yourself. It is possible that the salvage value with a good title would bring a high resale value. It is possible that you may come out better taking the cost of repairs and salvage value yourself,
Doubt that can happen, he has a leinholder, AND he's upside down. Ever see a leinholder release their lein so you can sell the salvage, keep the repair payment, and salvage purchase money, AND release the title? I sure haven't...



Quote:
I can assure you that you will lose one third to one half the trade in value should you elect to sell after the repairs are completed. The National Independent Automobile Dealers Association has put in writing that they use twenty five percent immediate depreciation as a beginning point for appraising the value of your trade. It is likely that you would be made an offer of half of what you expect to recieve on trade and twentyfive to fifty percent of retail value if you should sell to a private party.
Are you telling this OP that if his vehicle is repaired to factory specs, and a good job is done by the shop that he will AUTOMATICALLY, GUARANTEED, lose 33.3-50% off his trade in? Ok, Avg, trade in on this car is 7900.00 clean is 8700.00, while I don't doubt for a second that some dealerships would offered him much less 'initially' not to mention that the amount they are willing to give him on a trade in is HUGELY dependent upon what he's looking to buy REGARDLESS of prior repairs, (again assuming the repairs are done well)...You want us to believe that regardless of the quality of repair, regardless of his vehicles overall condition, regardless of what he is looking to buy he will automatically be offered 3800-5400 as a trade in...I don't buy it Mike, I really don't...
Quote:
If they choose to proceed with repairs after you have made your intent known that you prefer it to be totaled,
Mike! Since when has a consumer had the right to make this choice? And lucky for you he/she can't...Everyone wants someone else to bail them out of their bad debt, or sick of the car, upside down, and sideways. I'm not saying this vehicle shouldn't be totaled, maybe it should, and if a vehicle is close I always ask the owner, what they would like to see happen, (fix it or total), if it's close any adjuster worth their salt can shove it over the cliff, but you and I both know that insurance carriers can't go around totaling vehicles just because the owners 'want' them to. The numbers HAVE to make sense.
Quote:
that you intend to have a post repair inspection by a disinterested third party expert
Tell him this too is going to cost him a couple of hundred bucks...
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Any failure to be able to perform this repair and not meet your expectation
I'd say industry standards or OEM standard of repair, I agree the vehicle should be returned to pre-loss condition...however,
Quote:
could result in a repair related diminishment of value that both the shop and possibly the insurer could be liable for if the insurer refused to pay for any repair that would prohibit a pre-accident restoration of your vehicle.
If the shop does a crappy job, the shop owes to make it right, and he shouldn't have his vehicle at a shop that does crappy work from the get go...If the carrier refuses to pay to repair the vehicle per industry and manu. specs, then yes, the carrier should lose in what would be a long drawn out court battle...well, actually they both probably would...I don't want the OP to get the misunderstanding that his state allows first party DV....I know you said
Quote:
It is not inherent DV
But that's a term used 'in the biz' that everyone doesn't understand...OP you would have to get an attorney and bring a suit yourself..and that's only after you PROVED that the repairs were poor and/or the carrier was negligent in their assessment..sooooooooo per Mike
Quote:
The shop can not say in court, that the insurer failed to pay for necessary repairs so they couldn't do them. It is their job to ascertain all the damage since it is the court that deems they are experts and insurers only pay for repairs
You have to sue the shop..
Quote:
I recently found an additional 2500 in repairs and re-repairs that were overlooked or poorly repaired at an insurer direct repair shop that was on the preferred list of the insurer
So, who's fault was this Mike?
Quote:
The shop was required to re-repair the damage to the satisfaction of the vehicle owner
On their dime, I would think too...so clearly this was a crappy shop...right? Would that additional 2500 have totaled the vehicle in question? ONLY the additional repairs or not found damage would come into play here...not the rework, so I'd assume the amount of additional damage to be much less than the 2500?

Quote:
Six months later it is in the shop for additional repairs such as a hub bearing and strut that the shop claims is under normal warranty and the dealer claims is not, and the owner is caught in the middle with no help from the insurer.
Ok, geeze, a hub/bearing and strut $2500 do not make...if it's very similar to the OP's I would guess we are most certainly talking about (minimally) a 06-08 Elantra right? So that additional work is like what 500 bucks maybe? Sounds to me that your 'experts' have already made their decision
Quote:
the shop claims is under normal warranty
I assume also meaning normal wear and tear...or NOT accident related...and the carrier is following their advise...How many times Mike have you had someone tell you something is accident related that you know for sure that it's just not possible...so how did the the insurance company (in your example) become the bad guy? You claim the body shop is the one and only expert, that expert clearly says it's not accident related...soooooooo....



Mike I totally agree that the OP's tranny needs to be checked out and addressed, throughly before repairs begin. Also that the undercarriage of this car needs a good look as well (it went over a curb I think he said)...and if there is additional damage, that meet or exceed the threshold the car needs to be totaled, it is what it is. I just have a problem with you making it sound like:

a) The owner can decide if it's totaled or not...they cannot, they most certainly can and should decide 'if' they want it repaired, and by 'whom'. Totaling a vehicle is (for the most part) a purely economically decision. Which costs less? Totalling or fixing? That's no different than any other industry, and most certainly were it being paid out of your own pocket, (or mine) would be the same thing...Which ever is cheaper that's what we're doing...(not counting of course severe structural damage ie firewall etc)

b) you claim that the body shop is the ONLY expert, but then STILL try and blame the carrier for taking the EXPERTS advise that a strut and hub/bearing are not accident related...you just can't have it both ways...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:57 pm   Post subject:   

I wish I could get ahold of my adjuster. I spoke with the "expert" and he assured me that it would be totaled out even if the repairs were completed and if by chance the trans was bad and pushed it over the threshold. I'm assuming before my car is fixed I'll actually talk to my adjuster.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:27 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
The owner can decide if it's totaled or not




It's still the property of the owner and they can decide whether they choose to fix it or not. They may not have the authority to report it to the state that it is a total loss but, they can choose not to repair if the lein holder or a dealer is in agreement to sell the salvage and take the insurance check and roll the owner into a different vehicle and pay off the lein. Done all the time.





Quote:
Mike, you know no carrier can pay for 'maybe' damage...




I just wrote an estimate on a 13,000 dollar vehicle with 10,000 in damages. The insurer estimate was 7000 and they asked me to tow it in and make a closer inspection. It doesn't meet the threshold of 80 percent and after taking taxes and other non factors in the total loss equation, they took the maybe route because they didn't want to get caught repairing a total loss or one that would likely total even after 75 percent of the repairs were completed only to find additional problems. It was a wise move on their part and the vehicle owner was happy with the settlemnt and I got paid for my time and administrative fees by the insurer.



Quote:
Tell him this too is going to cost him a couple of hundred bucks...




Paying for a second opinion is done all the time in the medical field and sometimes it saves a person's life or pocket book in the longrun.



Quote:
...so how did the the insurance company (in your example) become the bad guy? You claim the body shop is the one and only expert, that expert clearly says it's not accident related...soooooooo....




The insurance company in this case wasn't the bad guy. They would have been if the repair expert asked to make a repair or replace a part in their professional opinion that should have been. In this case several things should have been done differently and parts replaced that were repaired to keep it under the threshhold. This was the repair shop's fault and the insurer's partially for relying on their preferred vendor working under the insurance company guidelines. 15 hours of repair in a new vehicle quarter panel full of bondo and black to boot? repaired High strength steel parts that should have been replaced both which would have put the car over the threshold. The point being, a disinterested third party should be called in to give the owner an opinion which could save them money down the road when they try to trade in a train wreck that has been repaired not to oem standards and requirements.





Quote:
Are you telling this OP that if his vehicle is repaired to factory specs, and a good job is done by the shop that he will AUTOMATICALLY, GUARANTEED, lose 33.3-50% off his trade in? Ok, Avg, trade in on this car is 7900.00 clean is 8700.00, while I don't doubt for a second that some dealerships would offered him much less 'initially' not to mention that the amount they are willing to give him on a trade in is HUGELY dependent upon what he's looking to buy REGARDLESS of prior repairs,




http://www.csiofnc.com/your_minimum_dv_loss.pdf letter from niada director with regard to 2800 member dealerships using 25 percent depreciation as a starting point for trading a used vehicle with accident damage.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:18 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
I spoke with the "expert" and he assured me that it would be totaled out even if the repairs were completed and if by chance the trans was bad and pushed it over the threshold.
That's great news Burnett! Their 'expert' most likely was an adjuster as well. Just a PD adjuster, either one that works for their company or an indendent. That should take a load off your mind. I'm glad to hear it. Re: your adjuster not returning calls, as I've said, call back zero out, and ask to speak to that adjusters supervisor, there is NO reason for your calls to go unreturned, NONE. And personally I wouldn't put up with it for a second...
Quote:
It's still the property of the owner and they can decide whether they choose to fix it or not
Ab-so-freakin'-lutely! I couldn't agree more...They however, cannot make the decision if the vehicle is a total loss or not.
Quote:
They may not have the authority to report it to the state that it is a total loss but, they can choose not to repair if the lein holder or a dealer is in agreement to sell the salvage and take the insurance check and roll the owner into a different vehicle and pay off the lein. Done all the time
I (again) totally agree Mike. Reporting a vehicle as a total loss to the state, isn't what totalling a vehicle is all about, (in fact in our great state if it's over seven years old that isn't even required anymore...maybe seven yrs. and over)...It's totaled if the cost of repair is either 80% of the ACV or ACV-salvage...
Quote:
I just wrote an estimate on a 13,000 dollar vehicle with 10,000 in damages. The insurer estimate was 7000 and they asked me to tow it in and make a closer inspection. It doesn't meet the threshold of 80 percent and after taking taxes and other non factors in the total loss equation
Again, the 80% rule, doesn't apply to every car, and no cars over a certain age (in MO folks)...
Quote:
they took the maybe route because they didn't want to get caught repairing a total loss or one that would likely total even after 75 percent of the repairs were completed only to find additional problems.
Right, and on a vehicle that is very close to a total, you can (as I said in prior post) push it over the cliff, but in a situation like the OP's you can't say, 'might be some tranny damage, yeah, I know we're over 1k from a total, but still Rolling Eyes "...
Quote:
It was a wise move on their part and the vehicle owner was happy with the settlemnt and I got paid for my time and administrative fees by the insurer.
I agree, and do the same, probably one every other month or so. But it's purely a case by case basis. If I have a vehicle who's front bumper is touching the dash, while I cannot see the individual parts damaged, I can pretty much prove that there is the high likelyhood of a huge supplement. Again, that's totally different from the OP's 'possible' tranny damage.
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Paying for a second opinion is done all the time in the medical field and sometimes it saves a person's life or pocket book in the longrun.
I'm not saying it doesn't my point is this is a cost HE would incur that would be unreimbursed...
Quote:
15 hours of repair in a new vehicle quarter panel full of bondo and black to boot?
Yeah, I wouldn't have written that either, but I've also run across in my time, some greedy shops that want to do the same thing, (high repair time rather than replace). Again, apparently that 'expert' agreed it was going to be a clean repair...was it? or did they end up replacing the 1/4? or just adding insult to injury by re-repairing it?
Quote:
The point being, a disinterested third party should be called in to give the owner an opinion which could save them money down the road when they try to trade in a train wreck that has been repaired not to oem standards and requirements.
Which is precisely what the appraisal claus is about...so did this insured impose that claus? Did they get the 1/4 replaced?
Quote:
http://www.csiofnc.com/your_minimum_dv_loss.pdf letter from niada director with regard to 2800 member dealerships using 25 percent depreciation as a starting point for trading a used vehicle with accident damage.
Thank you, I looked for it yesterday and couldn't find anything..Actually what he said was that repairs (#1) have to have been for 25% or more of the vehicle ACV to begin with. He further states that it's hugely dependent upon the age of the vehicle an older vehicle wouldn't have near (if any?) the deduction. In fact he says that the older the vehicle the less the impact. He also states no governing body or association publishes ANY guideline at all for this. His opinion is based upon discussions with his membership only. And not a guideline at all set out by this or any other association. And again, NC (state he is addressing this to), has a law on the books stating an OWNER must disclose any repair over 25% of the vehicles ACV, not sure MO does. I know the car dealer must, which is why they don't ask when you trade a vehicle in (don't ask don't tell mentality). But I'm not sure a private owner is required to report this unasked, and again we're talking about 25% of the vehicles ACV in repairs. I just don't think you can use this letter as a blanket for the entire country Mike.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:19 pm   Post subject:   

Most if not all of the DV assessments I have written were for newer cars with damage higher than 25 to 50 percent of acv. The greatest loss is for newer low mileage cars and for people that routinely trade every three or four years. In fact most off the assessments I do are on current year model or the last two years.



I typically see 10,000 dollars in damages on 25,000 dollar vehicles or 15,000 in damages on 35,000 bmws, lexus, etc.

Most people who are concerned about losses in value are people with damages that fall more into the 33 to 75 percent range.



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:25 pm   Post subject:   

There's a lot of information in here. I think the reason that they don't want to call it a total loss with it being 700 dollars away from the threshold is because the person that hit me didn't have insurance. Even though I know that they will get their money because he's in the navy. They will make him get a loan to pay it off.



We are entitled to the diminished value claim since we were hit and have filed under the uninsured motorists property damage, so that is what we will do. Hopefully we can get some money there.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:07 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
The greatest loss is for newer low mileage cars and for people that routinely trade every three or four years. In fact most off the assessments I do are on current year model or the last two years
Well, that makes a little more sense, but I still maintain that there is NO loss until that vehicle is traded or sold, (if any)..I (personally) think that NO DV claim should be paid until that time. If I have a 25k one year old vehicle that suffers 10k in damages, it's repaired, but I don't trade or sell it for five or six years, did I have the DV claim that I was paid when my vehicle was repaired? Of course not...That's one of my biggest problems with the validity of DV claims..
Quote:
I think the reason that they don't want to call it a total loss with it being 700 dollars away from the threshold is because the person that hit me didn't have insurance.
Nope, I assure you that has zero to do with it...
Quote:
Even though I know that they will get their money because he's in the navy. They will make him get a loan to pay it off.
Yeah, or they'll let him make payments...He'll sign a promisory note, and have to make payments forever. If he can pay them a lump sum, they'll reduce it substantially (ie-3-4k all at once and the whole thing goes away...that would be his best bet)...
Quote:
We are entitled to the diminished value claim since we were hit and have filed under the uninsured motorists property damage, so that is what we will do. Hopefully we can get some money there.
Are you SURE of that? Did the adjuster tell you that? Your state has no DV on first party claims, you need to get clarification on that ... If that's true, then your DV claim should eat up that 700.00 between repairing and totaling the vehicle.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:39 pm   Post subject:   

They did assure me that since it was the uninsured motorist property damage claim that a DV claim is allowed. I brought that up to the adjuster but they are adamant about repairing the vehicle. I held out as long as I could. Two weeks of BSing was all I could take. We will trade the car in as soon as it's repaired though so we can get the DV.



Also, the reason why the rental car wasn't initiated as soon as the collision happened is because I don't have it on my policy, but since it is being claimed under the UIMPD I'm entitled to a rental car.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:49 am   Post subject:   

Please consider coming back and telling us what kind of trade in offer values the dealer made to you after the car is repaired and you attempt to purchase another car with the repaired one as a trade in. We'll be here. Please also come back to let us know if the repairs were to your satisfaction and how many times, if any, did you have to return it to get additional repairs. Please be sure to ask for a written copy of the warranty from the insurer or shop.



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:53 am   Post subject:   

I will. My wife doesn't want the car since it's been in the accident. The insurance company assures me that the incident will not be put on the carfax report which is just retarded.



So if the repairs are made and it looks oem, then there will be no way to tell. Believe me though, since they were so adamant about saying it could be done, IT WILL BE DONE.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:30 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
The insurance company assures me that the incident will not be put on the carfax report which is just retarded
How are they able to assure you of that? or how are you able to know it will be? I'm assuming if it's on the carfax then your dv claim will increase? Are they telling you that your DV claim will not be paid unless and until you trade it in and there IS a diminished trade in value?
Quote:
Believe me though, since they were so adamant about saying it could be done, IT WILL BE DONE
I couldn't agree more, regardless of what they said. Any shop accepting your vehicle for repair, should be doing so with the sole intent of returning it to preloss condition. If they can't they should tell you that upfront. You didn't say if this is a 'preferred' shop or not.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:57 am   Post subject:   

It is the preferred shop for USAA in the area.



As for the DV, my understanding is the same as yours. You shouldn't be entitled to the DV if you still have the car. It should only be when you go to sell or trade in the vehicle. For the car fax, I'm not going to try and wait around and see if they put it on or not. We are going to trade in the vehicle when we get it back from repairs.

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