by Guest » Sat Jul 11, 2009 09:37 pm
I had my car ran into the other morning by a guy that fell asleep. He doesn't have insurance so I have to claim it on my insurance under uninsured motorists property damage. The car is a 07 Elantra and it was hit in the front driver's side. The car was struck and moved up the curb and then slid/rolled through the yard. The estimate is $6,182 for body damage and suspension repairs. There is no where in there a mention to the damage to the transmission that could have possibly occurred. The pillar that the door is mounted to is mangled and twisted. Also my airbags did not deploy.
From my understanding, the car is supposed to be able to be fixed to as it was prior to the accident. IMO, there is no way to get it that way without replacing the transmission and the frame will never be the same. How are they not totaling my car? They just come up with an arbitrary value for the car to meet this threshold? The NADA value of my car is $10,300. Which these cars are just not selling for that.
The accident was in South Carolina. So would I be entitled to a diminished value claim if the car is repaired? They came up with the estimate with the door, front fender, and front bumper removed. If there is any more damage found, and it eclipses the so important threshold, will they just stop fixing it and make the car a total loss?
Can someone please shed some light onto this, I'm at a loss. I've never had to use my insurance before out of my 8 years of driving and now that I need to use it, I get the shaft.
From my understanding, the car is supposed to be able to be fixed to as it was prior to the accident. IMO, there is no way to get it that way without replacing the transmission and the frame will never be the same. How are they not totaling my car? They just come up with an arbitrary value for the car to meet this threshold? The NADA value of my car is $10,300. Which these cars are just not selling for that.
The accident was in South Carolina. So would I be entitled to a diminished value claim if the car is repaired? They came up with the estimate with the door, front fender, and front bumper removed. If there is any more damage found, and it eclipses the so important threshold, will they just stop fixing it and make the car a total loss?
Can someone please shed some light onto this, I'm at a loss. I've never had to use my insurance before out of my 8 years of driving and now that I need to use it, I get the shaft.
Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:18 am Post Subject:
So this is the guy that I need to talk to I'm guessing.
yep...let us know how it goesPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 09:41 pm Post Subject:
Just an update, they found the rear bumper to be a loss and that must be replaced. So the total is up to $6,889, but I still couldn't convince them to total it out. So it is getting fixed.
My wife wants to trade it in when we get it back. The only way I'll do that that is if we can get what we owe on it so that way we aren't upside down.
So lets say hypothetically that they get the suspension body work fixed, and the transmission is somehow messed up. Would the vehicle then be considered totaled?
I'd like to thank you for your help!
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 02:28 am Post Subject:
I just cannot believe anybody could give any better or more satisfying answer than Lori. Hats off to you Lori. Pls. keep up your efforts to help the once in insurance trouble.
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:32 am Post Subject:
Would the vehicle then be considered totaled?
That depends on the company. I've seen cars totaled after they have been repaired, when something popped up, and I've seen them (carriers) just continue to throw good money after bad. I would think that they will have the tranny checked as soon as they get a suspension under it. You have a good case once that repair hit's the pecent threshold since it's on the books in your state. What did the adjuster say about it, should that happen?Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:55 pm Post Subject:
.
.
Is this car drivable?
"We do not have a rental car at this time, but as soon as the repairs begin we will receive the rental car. ”.
The above seems a little odd..??
One would think if a car isn't drivable they should have a Rental from Day One. Not after repairs begin.
Its my understanding that one's loss begins at the moment of impact along with a Rental car when the car in not drivable.
Not at the moment of beginning Repairs??
That would only make sense of the car was safe to drive while waiting for repairs to begin. In which case you and the Repairer would be able to Check & Test the Transmission.
Personally.... I'd demand Rental Payment retroactive to the date of the accident.
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 02:57 pm Post Subject:
She spoke to a manager today and finally found out what was going on. They are sending an "expert" out to estimate the damages tomorrow. He is going to call with the results. So this is the guy that I need to talk to I'm guessing.
The shop that is going to repair your car, if you authorize those repairs, should be the expert and your advocate for what is best in your situation. It sounds like the shop that has your car has the insurer's and their own best interest in mind, in my opinion. The expert they are waiting to inspect the vehicle is not likely a repair expert, but an expert in determining what the insurer is willing to pay based on the combined knowledge of the shop repairing the vehicle and the person who controls the company's checkbook. They are most likely going to make an educated guess that if they start repairs as to whether they will be able to complete the repairs under the threshold.
It is still your property and only you can make the decision on whether your car is repaired or not. The insurer can only authorize the funds be released to repair your vehicle if you so desire. If I were in your situation as the property owner, I would first hire a pro consumer shop owner to inspect the damage from your perpective and his as an expert. Chances are they have seen very similar damages on a number of similarly constructed vehicles. They will be able to provide you an estimate of repairs that may more accurately reflect all costs associated in the restoration of your vehicle and possibly the likelihood of expectant earlier and premature failure of other associated parts connected to the damaged ones.
Again, since it is your property, you could elect to sell the salvage to the highest bidder yourself. It is possible that the salvage value with a good title would bring a high resale value. It is possible that you may come out better taking the cost of repairs and salvage value yourself, but I can assure you that you will lose one third to one half the trade in value should you elect to sell after the repairs are completed. The National Independent Automobile Dealers Association has put in writing that they use twenty five percent immediate depreciation as a beginning point for appraising the value of your trade. It is likely that you would be made an offer of half of what you expect to recieve on trade and twentyfive to fifty percent of retail value if you should sell to a private party.
If they choose to proceed with repairs after you have made your intent known that you prefer it to be totaled, I would let the shop know in writing that you intend to have a post repair inspection by a disinterested third party expert to ascertain that there was no fraud in the repairs, no damage left unrepaired and all damage was restored to pre accident condition. Any failure to be able to perform this repair and not meet your expectation could result in a repair related diminishment of value that both the shop and possibly the insurer could be liable for if the insurer refused to pay for any repair that would prohibit a pre-accident restoration of your vehicle. This type of DV is owed on first party claims either by the insurer or the shop. It is not inherent DV. A judge can decide whether it was the shop that failed to perform the necessary repairs since they are experts, or the insurer failed to pay under contract for required and necessary repairs. The shop can not say in court, that the insurer failed to pay for necessary repairs so they couldn't do them. It is their job to ascertain all the damage since it is the court that deems they are experts and insurers only pay for repairs.
If you choose to repair your vehicle, be sure to ask for a copy of the repair warranty from both the shop and the insurer if they claim to have one. Be sure of what could be included and attributed to the accident if additional squeaks, rattles, leaks, malfunctions, windnoises, misalignments, door sagging , paint failures, chipping, premature wear not covered under factory warranty, mechanical failures are found in a resonable period of time following the repairs or accident.
I recently found an additional 2500 in repairs and re-repairs that were overlooked or poorly repaired at an insurer direct repair shop that was on the preferred list of the insurer. The shop was required to re-repair the damage to the satisfaction of the vehicle owner. The owner requested the totaling of the vehicle before the repairs. The damage sounded very similar to yours. Six months later it is in the shop for additional repairs such as a hub bearing and strut that the shop claims is under normal warranty and the dealer claims is not, and the owner is caught in the middle with no help from the insurer.
Good luck with which ever choice you make as the owner.
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 02:58 pm Post Subject:
The above response was mine, Mike of the Ozarks. I was logged in but it posted it as a guest.
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 09:44 pm Post Subject:
The above response was mine, Mike of the Ozarks.
I'd have NEVER guessed that! :wink:It is still your property and only you can make the decision on whether your car is repaired or not.
Agreed, but it not his decision if the vehicle is 'repairable' or totaled...More than likely that is the 'expert' he is talking about...possibly the likelihood of expectant earlier and premature failure of other associated parts connected to the damaged ones.
Mike, you know no carrier can pay for 'maybe' damage...And if I understood the OP at all this thing has the frt suspension and steering knocked out of it...his concern (mostly) is that given it was shoved a great distance in park that the tranny could have damage, and it certainly is possible. But you wouldn't fork over money on 'possible' damage either. That's (IMO) what needs to be addressed, most certainly if this vehicle needs a tranny, it's boned...I would first hire a pro consumer shop owner to inspect the damage from your perpective and his as an expert.
I don't understand why he would want to pay out of his pocket for anything...and no OP you will most certainly NOT get that 'fee' reimbursed. It's really quite easy if you think about it (and no cost to him)...to insist the tranny be inspected by someone qualified to do that inspection (usually NOT a body shop)...if there are issues with the transmission they should address them on the front end of this repair, (or asap, they can get it to roll) especially given his state has a percentage total loss threshold on the books...I just don't get him forking over a ''fee'' to someone when it shouldn't cost him a nickle to get it inspected...Surely there is a Hyundai dealership/service dept in the area. The carrier is on the hook for that inspection...Again, since it is your property, you could elect to sell the salvage to the highest bidder yourself. It is possible that the salvage value with a good title would bring a high resale value. It is possible that you may come out better taking the cost of repairs and salvage value yourself,
Doubt that can happen, he has a leinholder, AND he's upside down. Ever see a leinholder release their lein so you can sell the salvage, keep the repair payment, and salvage purchase money, AND release the title? I sure haven't...I can assure you that you will lose one third to one half the trade in value should you elect to sell after the repairs are completed. The National Independent Automobile Dealers Association has put in writing that they use twenty five percent immediate depreciation as a beginning point for appraising the value of your trade. It is likely that you would be made an offer of half of what you expect to recieve on trade and twentyfive to fifty percent of retail value if you should sell to a private party.
Are you telling this OP that if his vehicle is repaired to factory specs, and a good job is done by the shop that he will AUTOMATICALLY, GUARANTEED, lose 33.3-50% off his trade in? Ok, Avg, trade in on this car is 7900.00 clean is 8700.00, while I don't doubt for a second that some dealerships would offered him much less 'initially' not to mention that the amount they are willing to give him on a trade in is HUGELY dependent upon what he's looking to buy REGARDLESS of prior repairs, (again assuming the repairs are done well)...You want us to believe that regardless of the quality of repair, regardless of his vehicles overall condition, regardless of what he is looking to buy he will automatically be offered 3800-5400 as a trade in...I don't buy it Mike, I really don't...If they choose to proceed with repairs after you have made your intent known that you prefer it to be totaled,
Mike! Since when has a consumer had the right to make this choice? And lucky for you he/she can't...Everyone wants someone else to bail them out of their bad debt, or sick of the car, upside down, and sideways. I'm not saying this vehicle shouldn't be totaled, maybe it should, and if a vehicle is close I always ask the owner, what they would like to see happen, (fix it or total), if it's close any adjuster worth their salt can shove it over the cliff, but you and I both know that insurance carriers can't go around totaling vehicles just because the owners 'want' them to. The numbers HAVE to make sense.that you intend to have a post repair inspection by a disinterested third party expert
Tell him this too is going to cost him a couple of hundred bucks...Any failure to be able to perform this repair and not meet your expectation
I'd say industry standards or OEM standard of repair, I agree the vehicle should be returned to pre-loss condition...however,could result in a repair related diminishment of value that both the shop and possibly the insurer could be liable for if the insurer refused to pay for any repair that would prohibit a pre-accident restoration of your vehicle.
If the shop does a crappy job, the shop owes to make it right, and he shouldn't have his vehicle at a shop that does crappy work from the get go...If the carrier refuses to pay to repair the vehicle per industry and manu. specs, then yes, the carrier should lose in what would be a long drawn out court battle...well, actually they both probably would...I don't want the OP to get the misunderstanding that his state allows first party DV....I know you saidIt is not inherent DV
But that's a term used 'in the biz' that everyone doesn't understand...OP you would have to get an attorney and bring a suit yourself..and that's only after you PROVED that the repairs were poor and/or the carrier was negligent in their assessment..sooooooooo per MikeThe shop can not say in court, that the insurer failed to pay for necessary repairs so they couldn't do them. It is their job to ascertain all the damage since it is the court that deems they are experts and insurers only pay for repairs
You have to sue the shop..I recently found an additional 2500 in repairs and re-repairs that were overlooked or poorly repaired at an insurer direct repair shop that was on the preferred list of the insurer
So, who's fault was this Mike?The shop was required to re-repair the damage to the satisfaction of the vehicle owner
On their dime, I would think too...so clearly this was a crappy shop...right? Would that additional 2500 have totaled the vehicle in question? ONLY the additional repairs or not found damage would come into play here...not the rework, so I'd assume the amount of additional damage to be much less than the 2500?Six months later it is in the shop for additional repairs such as a hub bearing and strut that the shop claims is under normal warranty and the dealer claims is not, and the owner is caught in the middle with no help from the insurer.
Ok, geeze, a hub/bearing and strut $2500 do not make...if it's very similar to the OP's I would guess we are most certainly talking about (minimally) a 06-08 Elantra right? So that additional work is like what 500 bucks maybe? Sounds to me that your 'experts' have already made their decisionthe shop claims is under normal warranty
I assume also meaning normal wear and tear...or NOT accident related...and the carrier is following their advise...How many times Mike have you had someone tell you something is accident related that you know for sure that it's just not possible...so how did the the insurance company (in your example) become the bad guy? You claim the body shop is the one and only expert, that expert clearly says it's not accident related...soooooooo....Mike I totally agree that the OP's tranny needs to be checked out and addressed, throughly before repairs begin. Also that the undercarriage of this car needs a good look as well (it went over a curb I think he said)...and if there is additional damage, that meet or exceed the threshold the car needs to be totaled, it is what it is. I just have a problem with you making it sound like:
a) The owner can decide if it's totaled or not...they cannot, they most certainly can and should decide 'if' they want it repaired, and by 'whom'. Totaling a vehicle is (for the most part) a purely economically decision. Which costs less? Totalling or fixing? That's no different than any other industry, and most certainly were it being paid out of your own pocket, (or mine) would be the same thing...Which ever is cheaper that's what we're doing...(not counting of course severe structural damage ie firewall etc)
b) you claim that the body shop is the ONLY expert, but then STILL try and blame the carrier for taking the EXPERTS advise that a strut and hub/bearing are not accident related...you just can't have it both ways...
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:57 pm Post Subject:
I wish I could get ahold of my adjuster. I spoke with the "expert" and he assured me that it would be totaled out even if the repairs were completed and if by chance the trans was bad and pushed it over the threshold. I'm assuming before my car is fixed I'll actually talk to my adjuster.
Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:27 am Post Subject:
The owner can decide if it's totaled or not
It's still the property of the owner and they can decide whether they choose to fix it or not. They may not have the authority to report it to the state that it is a total loss but, they can choose not to repair if the lein holder or a dealer is in agreement to sell the salvage and take the insurance check and roll the owner into a different vehicle and pay off the lein. Done all the time.
Mike, you know no carrier can pay for 'maybe' damage...
I just wrote an estimate on a 13,000 dollar vehicle with 10,000 in damages. The insurer estimate was 7000 and they asked me to tow it in and make a closer inspection. It doesn't meet the threshold of 80 percent and after taking taxes and other non factors in the total loss equation, they took the maybe route because they didn't want to get caught repairing a total loss or one that would likely total even after 75 percent of the repairs were completed only to find additional problems. It was a wise move on their part and the vehicle owner was happy with the settlemnt and I got paid for my time and administrative fees by the insurer.
Tell him this too is going to cost him a couple of hundred bucks...
Paying for a second opinion is done all the time in the medical field and sometimes it saves a person's life or pocket book in the longrun.
...so how did the the insurance company (in your example) become the bad guy? You claim the body shop is the one and only expert, that expert clearly says it's not accident related...soooooooo....
The insurance company in this case wasn't the bad guy. They would have been if the repair expert asked to make a repair or replace a part in their professional opinion that should have been. In this case several things should have been done differently and parts replaced that were repaired to keep it under the threshhold. This was the repair shop's fault and the insurer's partially for relying on their preferred vendor working under the insurance company guidelines. 15 hours of repair in a new vehicle quarter panel full of bondo and black to boot? repaired High strength steel parts that should have been replaced both which would have put the car over the threshold. The point being, a disinterested third party should be called in to give the owner an opinion which could save them money down the road when they try to trade in a train wreck that has been repaired not to oem standards and requirements.
Are you telling this OP that if his vehicle is repaired to factory specs, and a good job is done by the shop that he will AUTOMATICALLY, GUARANTEED, lose 33.3-50% off his trade in? Ok, Avg, trade in on this car is 7900.00 clean is 8700.00, while I don't doubt for a second that some dealerships would offered him much less 'initially' not to mention that the amount they are willing to give him on a trade in is HUGELY dependent upon what he's looking to buy REGARDLESS of prior repairs,
http://www.csiofnc.com/your_minimum_dv_loss.pdf letter from niada director with regard to 2800 member dealerships using 25 percent depreciation as a starting point for trading a used vehicle with accident damage.
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