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 Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject: Accident involving my teen using another car |
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Legal question.
My daughter is 17 with a full PA drivers license.
Her best friend was out of town. The best friend has a car - not hers, but its one of her parents, but she drives it all the time. Friend says to my kid, "you can borrow my car this weekend if you want, I'm out of town". I have no knowledge of this, neither does the other parents.
Well, my kid borrows the car, picks up a friend, and gets into an accident at a dangerous intersection. Both cars are totalled - the other cars driver and passenger request to go to the hospital. My kid and her friend decline, they were ok. No tickets were issued.
After thanking God everyone is ok, I call my insurance agent. He says that the insurance follows the vehicle, not the driver, so unfortunately, its up to BFF's dad to deal with all this. I call him and we have a cordial talk - he's really not sounding too upset, more concerned about the kids being ok.
Once I get my kid home, I give her the hug, the tears flow from her, then she gets the lecture. Grounded till forever and don't even think about driving again for at least 6 months. Not letting us know she's driving someone else's car? WTF was she thinking?
A day later, I'm talking to the dad again. I tell him about the insurance issue and I'll cover any deductible on his policy. He's still cool about it, his biggest worry now is being without the car. So I'm telling him that he needs to check his insurance, it should cover rentals, but if it doesn't, I'll take care of it. He says he has collision, which should cover the cost of the vehicle - a 98 Honda with 110K.
Where it gets sticky is - technically, the car isn't his daughters, she's just listed as a secondary driver. So technically, she doesn't have the right to say who drives the car. It would fall on the dad, who obviously wouldn't let anyone else drive the car. We haven't discussed this issue yet, we're still waiting for the insurance offices to open Monday. Where it gets stickier is my kid has had her license for only two months - she was covered under our policy when she had her permit, but once she became a full fledged PA driver, it would increase our insurance $100/month. She was saving up for it at the time of the accident - until she was able to pay her insurance, we weren't putting her on our policy. So I'm not even sure she would be covered under ours.
I'm trying to be as cordial as I can about this. Unfortunately, this looks like its not going to go away easy. The thing that is getting to me is - the dad isn't holding his daughter in any way responsible for lending out the family car. I ground the shit out of my kid, yet BFF gets off and was out last night partying. If my kid pulled that stunt, I'd kill her.
Am I screwed? |
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JoeySunday
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Not sure what you meant by that 'you are not going to add her to the policy till she manages to pay for the coverage'. If that implies that she isn't covered under your policy but allowed to drive around. I'd say that's not a very wise decision. IMO you should have been preempt in including her in the policy. The insurance company won't be too lenient towards your condition if you have an uninsured teen driver in your household. They may even decide not to renew the coverage. |
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simon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: |
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Hey Joye, what is the legal question here? Are you only concerned that the father hasn't grounded his daughter as you did?
Please try to highlight the issue that has been worrying you. Be precise with your description. I think it would save the on the expert's part and they will be able to assist you in a better manner.
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anonymous 12
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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The question here was your daughter a permissive driver of that vehicle. Did your daughter’s friend have the authority to give your daughter permission to drive the vehicle? This would seem to lean on what the BFF states to their insurance company. If she is truthful that he gave permission to your daughter, I can't see how they could deny coverage.
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Dasfuk
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Das, even if the friend wasn't authorised to lend the car and her insurer denies the claim, how it could affect the OP? I think she is worrying without reason.
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anonymous 12
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:50 am Post subject: |
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hi Joey Sunday,
You have narrated the whole story. its really a complete information about the incidence but still I am not clear what exactly you want to ask to the board members over here?
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amit
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | WTF was she thinking? |
She wasn't come on now, you KNOW 17 year olds DON'T think... 
Here's the deal Dad can say what ever he wants, he couldn't be wronger, his daughter can lend the car too...Das is right hopefully BFF will tell the truth...but even if she does lie, how would she have got the keys, did other kids know about the arrangement etc? She'll be caught, and really Dad should'nt be so quick to want to dump this, because he could still be on the hook..and if he does want to go down this road he'll likely have to have your daughter arrested for vehicle theft (don't worry this isn't going to happen...he just doesn't know what he's talking about)
I think you have nothing at all to worry about, dad and (spoiled) BFF's policy will be on this claim...
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Lori
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: |
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After some discussion with my own agent, what Lori says seems to be the most accurate. When the parent/owner gives permission for the daughter to drive, that permission can then be granted down the line to someone else. So, technically, MY daughter could've given someone permission to drive the car as well. Its unfortunate, but responsibility DOES lie on the owner of the car.
A funky example: You give your roomie permission to drive your car. She in turns gives her boyfriend permission to drive the car. Ok so far until he decides to bang into a few cars down the road, panic, and quickly drive the car back. 10 minutes later the cops bang on the door, ask the girl, "is that your car", she says yes, and promptly gets arrested.
As for the vehicle theft concern, won't happen. He would've had to file a report by now. And as Lori says, (as well as my agent), I really don't think I have too much to worry about, but its nice to have all my concerns covered. Actually, it may wind up swinging around the other way - he (BFF's dad) looked at the car and noticed the extreme amount of damage, its completely totaled and how anyone walked away from it is a miracle. He questioned how a car, turning slowly on a road where its posted 25mph, could sustain such damage, making one wonder how fast the other car was traveling. |
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JoeySunday
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Dad should'nt be so quick to want to dump this, because he could still be on the hook |
I agree. Just cause the Dad may not want his insurance to respond doesn't mean that it is still not his car. I love growing up when I had my parents car and one of my friends wanted to borrow it and would state "I've got insurance that will cover it". Luckly my parents had sat me down and explained that it didn't work that way.
It seems like everything will work out.
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Dasfuk
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He questioned how a car, turning slowly on a road where its posted 25mph, could sustain such damage, making one wonder how fast the other car was traveling. |
I bet, there are more to it But I'm glad to know that there isn't much to cause you worries. Hopefully your daughter would look at it as a narrow escape from huge financial liability and remember it as a learning experience for the future.
~Jeremy |
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JeremyHolter
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When the parent/owner gives permission for the daughter to drive, that permission can then be granted down the line to someone else. So, technically, MY daughter could've given someone permission to drive the car as well. Its unfortunate, but responsibility DOES lie on the owner of the car. |
EXACTY!
I'm glad you got further clarification from your agent that we were giving you straight dope...A lot of people think (incorrectly) like dad of bff, or as in Das's example...I still hear grown people say that!
Let us know if we can be of further assistance Joey, we're here to help..
oh...p.s...bet dad hasn't figured out yet that his premiums are going to take one heck of a hike for about three years either (  )
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Lori
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:50 am Post subject: Ok, new problem |
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Wanted to get some more feedback on this - it looks like his insurance is taking care of everything.
New twist is that when I first heard about the accident, I told the guy I'd pay his deductible, at the time I was feeling horribly guilty about the whole thing. I'm figuring, what, 250, maybe 500? Well, he called me tonight and said its 1000!!!
My agent told me under no circumstances should I pay it, it definitely sets me up for possible future legal problems, and it's tantamount to admitting fault...but I told her I already said something to him when I first heard about the accident. She said its a real, REAL bad idea - and now, especially since its 1000, and I simply don't have it handy. I could probably pay 250 now, but once I start THAT ball rolling, it commits me to paying it all, and then there's the possibility of him saying something to HIS insurance...thus causing it to probably fall back on MINE...if I don't pay at all when I promised I said I would.
Holy crap.... |
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JoeySunday
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| hi Joye, I don't think there would be any legal consequences, you aren't breaching any contract, right? You offered to pay for the deductible out of goodness and he can't have you responsible for not paying it now. BTW, how do you know that his deductible is $1,000 and not $500? |
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kelvin
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | it looks like his insurance is taking care of everything. |
told ya' 'nutin' to worry about dad wasn't near as smart as he thought
| Quote: | | My agent told me under no circumstances should I pay it, it definitely sets me up for possible future legal problems, and it's tantamount to admitting fault |
Your agent is wrong about that.. | Quote: | | could probably pay 250 now, but once I start THAT ball rolling, it commits me to paying it all, and then there's the possibility of him saying something to HIS insurance...thus causing it to probably fall back on MINE...if I don't pay at all when I promised I said I would. |
Whether he says something to his carrier or not has zero bearing on the liability or negligence laws...If I were you, I'd say, ''ok look, I admit I said that I was an emotional wreck at the time, and thought we were talking about maybe 500 bucks...i should've asked how much your deductible was before I offered to cover it...here's what I'm willing to do, I'll cover half your deductible by giving you 250 now and the other 250 (whenever you are sure you can)...I understand I am under no legal obligation to do so, and will only do this if you sign a paper that says so, I'm sorry but that's all I can do"....then draw up a paper saying that you and your daughter (and husband/her father) are admitting no wrong doing, and are only paying this in a effort to maintain harmony...blah blah...IMO since you said it, you have some moral obligation to follow thru...you do not have a legal obligation. So you will have to decide on that one...I suppose he could sue you or your daughter in small claims to see if a Judge thought it was owed..but as a point of law it is not so doubt that would go anywhere...again it's a moral question...you'll have to make that call..but this is my suggestion/opinion...Were I in your shoes I'd undoubted want to cover atleast half...He's suffering a huge loss, (car and higher rates for a long long time)...so I'd feel some moral obligation to pay that much but you can bet your behind, my kid would be paying me back every cent probably a good lesson for her as well..
Kelvin makes a good point too I'd want a copy of his dec sheet or his most recent bill showing the deductible is this much...(wouldn't surprise me though higher the deductible lower the premium and this was a kids car...so he's probably not lying about it, but better safe than sorry)..
BTW, how are the girls getting along now? And did the little princess tell the truth about giving your daughter the car?
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Lori
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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This has gone from bad to absolute worst. And I mean WORST. I talked with the father and told him I'd cover half. He said ok, he'll discuss this with his wife.
Later on, I get a major furious phone call from the mother, literally screaming at me, demanding the entire amount. That the 3k she got from the carrier isn't enough to get a decent car, that she'll have to put out at least 2k of her OWN to buy a decent car, that she's been fair and not asked for a rental on my end (yeah, my fault she didn't have renters insurance), that she's been having to juggle vehicles and its affected her work and blah blah blah. Yeah, her kid was negligent and has suffered enough as well, yet the offer of half is tantamount to NOT paying at all. Man, my ears were bleeding after that reaming.
I consulted my agent again, who told me that the problem is now if she decides to take me to court, that she may turn around and add deductible amounts, lost wages, rental vehicle costs, legal costs....I'm just ready to cash advance 500 on a credit card to pay the other half to shut this woman up.
Just when I thought the dad and I had it all straightened out today...
Kids are getting along...for now....and she did admit she lent out the car. |
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JoeySunday
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