by Joey Sunday » Sun Apr 26, 2009 08:37 pm
Legal question.
My daughter is 17 with a full PA drivers license.
Her best friend was out of town. The best friend has a car - not hers, but its one of her parents, but she drives it all the time. Friend says to my kid, "you can borrow my car this weekend if you want, I'm out of town". I have no knowledge of this, neither does the other parents.
Well, my kid borrows the car, picks up a friend, and gets into an accident at a dangerous intersection. Both cars are totalled - the other cars driver and passenger request to go to the hospital. My kid and her friend decline, they were ok. No tickets were issued.
After thanking God everyone is ok, I call my insurance agent. He says that the insurance follows the vehicle, not the driver, so unfortunately, its up to BFF's dad to deal with all this. I call him and we have a cordial talk - he's really not sounding too upset, more concerned about the kids being ok.
Once I get my kid home, I give her the hug, the tears flow from her, then she gets the lecture. Grounded till forever and don't even think about driving again for at least 6 months. Not letting us know she's driving someone else's car? WTF was she thinking?
A day later, I'm talking to the dad again. I tell him about the insurance issue and I'll cover any deductible on his policy. He's still cool about it, his biggest worry now is being without the car. So I'm telling him that he needs to check his insurance, it should cover rentals, but if it doesn't, I'll take care of it. He says he has collision, which should cover the cost of the vehicle - a 98 Honda with 110K.
Where it gets sticky is - technically, the car isn't his daughters, she's just listed as a secondary driver. So technically, she doesn't have the right to say who drives the car. It would fall on the dad, who obviously wouldn't let anyone else drive the car. We haven't discussed this issue yet, we're still waiting for the insurance offices to open Monday. Where it gets stickier is my kid has had her license for only two months - she was covered under our policy when she had her permit, but once she became a full fledged PA driver, it would increase our insurance $100/month. She was saving up for it at the time of the accident - until she was able to pay her insurance, we weren't putting her on our policy. So I'm not even sure she would be covered under ours.
I'm trying to be as cordial as I can about this. Unfortunately, this looks like its not going to go away easy. The thing that is getting to me is - the dad isn't holding his daughter in any way responsible for lending out the family car. I ground the shit out of my kid, yet BFF gets off and was out last night partying. If my kid pulled that stunt, I'd kill her.
Am I screwed?
My daughter is 17 with a full PA drivers license.
Her best friend was out of town. The best friend has a car - not hers, but its one of her parents, but she drives it all the time. Friend says to my kid, "you can borrow my car this weekend if you want, I'm out of town". I have no knowledge of this, neither does the other parents.
Well, my kid borrows the car, picks up a friend, and gets into an accident at a dangerous intersection. Both cars are totalled - the other cars driver and passenger request to go to the hospital. My kid and her friend decline, they were ok. No tickets were issued.
After thanking God everyone is ok, I call my insurance agent. He says that the insurance follows the vehicle, not the driver, so unfortunately, its up to BFF's dad to deal with all this. I call him and we have a cordial talk - he's really not sounding too upset, more concerned about the kids being ok.
Once I get my kid home, I give her the hug, the tears flow from her, then she gets the lecture. Grounded till forever and don't even think about driving again for at least 6 months. Not letting us know she's driving someone else's car? WTF was she thinking?
A day later, I'm talking to the dad again. I tell him about the insurance issue and I'll cover any deductible on his policy. He's still cool about it, his biggest worry now is being without the car. So I'm telling him that he needs to check his insurance, it should cover rentals, but if it doesn't, I'll take care of it. He says he has collision, which should cover the cost of the vehicle - a 98 Honda with 110K.
Where it gets sticky is - technically, the car isn't his daughters, she's just listed as a secondary driver. So technically, she doesn't have the right to say who drives the car. It would fall on the dad, who obviously wouldn't let anyone else drive the car. We haven't discussed this issue yet, we're still waiting for the insurance offices to open Monday. Where it gets stickier is my kid has had her license for only two months - she was covered under our policy when she had her permit, but once she became a full fledged PA driver, it would increase our insurance $100/month. She was saving up for it at the time of the accident - until she was able to pay her insurance, we weren't putting her on our policy. So I'm not even sure she would be covered under ours.
I'm trying to be as cordial as I can about this. Unfortunately, this looks like its not going to go away easy. The thing that is getting to me is - the dad isn't holding his daughter in any way responsible for lending out the family car. I ground the shit out of my kid, yet BFF gets off and was out last night partying. If my kid pulled that stunt, I'd kill her.
Am I screwed?
Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:50 am Post Subject: Ok, new problem
Wanted to get some more feedback on this - it looks like his insurance is taking care of everything.
New twist is that when I first heard about the accident, I told the guy I'd pay his deductible, at the time I was feeling horribly guilty about the whole thing. I'm figuring, what, 250, maybe 500? Well, he called me tonight and said its 1000!!!
My agent told me under no circumstances should I pay it, it definitely sets me up for possible future legal problems, and it's tantamount to admitting fault...but I told her I already said something to him when I first heard about the accident. She said its a real, REAL bad idea - and now, especially since its 1000, and I simply don't have it handy. I could probably pay 250 now, but once I start THAT ball rolling, it commits me to paying it all, and then there's the possibility of him saying something to HIS insurance...thus causing it to probably fall back on MINE...if I don't pay at all when I promised I said I would.
Holy crap....
Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 06:59 am Post Subject:
hi Joye, I don't think there would be any legal consequences, you aren't breaching any contract, right? You offered to pay for the deductible out of goodness and he can't have you responsible for not paying it now. BTW, how do you know that his deductible is $1,000 and not $500?
Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:47 am Post Subject:
it looks like his insurance is taking care of everything.
told ya' 'nutin' to worry about dad wasn't near as smart as he thought :wink:My agent told me under no circumstances should I pay it, it definitely sets me up for possible future legal problems, and it's tantamount to admitting fault
Your agent is wrong about that..could probably pay 250 now, but once I start THAT ball rolling, it commits me to paying it all, and then there's the possibility of him saying something to HIS insurance...thus causing it to probably fall back on MINE...if I don't pay at all when I promised I said I would.
Whether he says something to his carrier or not has zero bearing on the liability or negligence laws...If I were you, I'd say, ''ok look, I admit I said that I was an emotional wreck at the time, and thought we were talking about maybe 500 bucks...i should've asked how much your deductible was before I offered to cover it...here's what I'm willing to do, I'll cover half your deductible by giving you 250 now and the other 250 (whenever you are sure you can)...I understand I am under no legal obligation to do so, and will only do this if you sign a paper that says so, I'm sorry but that's all I can do"....then draw up a paper saying that you and your daughter (and husband/her father) are admitting no wrong doing, and are only paying this in a effort to maintain harmony...blah blah...IMO since you said it, you have some moral obligation to follow thru...you do not have a legal obligation. So you will have to decide on that one...I suppose he could sue you or your daughter in small claims to see if a Judge thought it was owed..but as a point of law it is not so doubt that would go anywhere...again it's a moral question...you'll have to make that call..but this is my suggestion/opinion...Were I in your shoes I'd undoubted want to cover atleast half...He's suffering a huge loss, (car and higher rates for a long long time)...so I'd feel some moral obligation to pay that much but you can bet your behind, my kid would be paying me back every cent :wink: probably a good lesson for her as well.. :wink:Kelvin makes a good point too I'd want a copy of his dec sheet or his most recent bill showing the deductible is this much...(wouldn't surprise me though higher the deductible lower the premium and this was a kids car...so he's probably not lying about it, but better safe than sorry)..
BTW, how are the girls getting along now? And did the little princess tell the truth about giving your daughter the car?
Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 08:06 pm Post Subject:
This has gone from bad to absolute worst. And I mean WORST. I talked with the father and told him I'd cover half. He said ok, he'll discuss this with his wife.
Later on, I get a major furious phone call from the mother, literally screaming at me, demanding the entire amount. That the 3k she got from the carrier isn't enough to get a decent car, that she'll have to put out at least 2k of her OWN to buy a decent car, that she's been fair and not asked for a rental on my end (yeah, my fault she didn't have renters insurance), that she's been having to juggle vehicles and its affected her work and blah blah blah. Yeah, her kid was negligent and has suffered enough as well, yet the offer of half is tantamount to NOT paying at all. Man, my ears were bleeding after that reaming.
I consulted my agent again, who told me that the problem is now if she decides to take me to court, that she may turn around and add deductible amounts, lost wages, rental vehicle costs, legal costs....I'm just ready to cash advance 500 on a credit card to pay the other half to shut this woman up.
Just when I thought the dad and I had it all straightened out today...
Kids are getting along...for now....and she did admit she lent out the car.
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 04:07 am Post Subject:
Later on, I get a major furious phone call from the mother, literally screaming at me, demanding the entire amount.
Doesn't that confirm that she is absolutely naive when it comes to insurance? :)
Joye, one more time...'you owe them nothing'. They may drag you to the court but that doesn't guarantee that she can get you pay for the damages. And, I'm sure that wouldn't even worth the court fees, atty fees and the time spent.
Kids are getting along...for now....and she did admit she lent out the car.
This would be the key...as long as she sticks to the truth things would be fine. However, even if she disagrees afterward about lending car to the friend, pressing a theft charge against your daughter would be hard.
Joye just stick to what you have said. And, keep us updated. What's your daughter's reaction after all these?
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 10:54 am Post Subject:
That the 3k she got from the carrier isn't enough to get a decent car, that she'll have to put out at least 2k of her OWN to buy a decent car
THAT is not your fault or concern...the vehicle most likely wasn 't worth what they 'thought' it was...at any rate, that's none of your concern...at all!!!that she's been fair and not asked for a rental on my end (yeah, my fault she didn't have renters insurance), that she's been having to juggle vehicles and its affected her work and blah blah blah. Yeah,
She hasn't been 'fair' about anything, you owe nothing..what does she have to be 'fair' about? you owed her nothing, not even their deductible, you have no legal obligation, paying part of their deductible is ONLY a friendly gesture..period, their own daughter put them in this position NOT you....tell her to kiss off...That clearly she doesn't understand the laws in your state and you legally (IMO remember I'm no attorney but have been in this biz over twenty years)...are not required to pay a dime...no way in hell would I after that phone call give her a cent..unless I got an apology and that's what I'd tell the dad..She can sue you in small claims, but I don't see it going anywhere at all...The judge knows the laws....no attorney would take this....you'd probably have a better shot at sueing them for being negligent and putting your daughter in harms way, by allowing her to take the car (thru their daughter), without your permission and barely having a license..(i know you wouldn't but suits just this stupid get paid all the time.) all i'm saying is you'd have a better shot than they would...
Again, this is all a personal/moral issue. If it were me, she'd have just given me a clear conscience for not paying anything at all with her attitude on that phone call, but it's up to you...clearly she would be unappreciative of anything you give her..and has accepted zero responsibility for their's or their daughters actions in this mess..
Maybe you might want to talk with Dad again. Remember, make them sign a release of some kind before giving them a dime...and prove their deductible, if you decide to pay them...but if I were in your shoes, I'd seriously be rethinking that now, given her agression....
How did you call end with hysterical mother?
Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 12:31 pm Post Subject:
Thanks, Lori - the call ended with basically them (or her) wanting a decision by today (Saturday). The more I think about it, the more I'm just going to ignore this. Go ahead, file suit, you had a chance at 500 now, but now you're getting nothing and you'll be without a car even longer. And what if your little princess crashed? You'd STILL be out the money!??! Hell, at least with my kid, you're getting 500.
I called my insurance agent and told her the story and she said that basically they're out of this. They have nothing to do with his deductible. And that since I kinda made the gesture of offering to pay some kind of deductible, which is tantamount to offering restitution, they really have no recourse. Its now between them and I.
You're right, Lori - I've slept on this and decided I've had enough - this schlep didn't even know who is agent was, took the worst policy he could find because he was cheap, had no idea what his deductible was or what it covered, and didn't even contact them until one week after the accident. Hell, it wasn't my car and I called my own agent AT HOME 9PM FRIDAY it happened.
My worry was them taking me to court and trying to recover attorneys fees, all that stuff, but from what I'm reading online, that won't happen. Can't recover fees unless there's a written contract stating so.
Kelvin - as for sticking to the truth - the insurance company has recorded statements from both kids involved, and kid admits giving permissible use.
Posted: Sun May 10, 2009 10:36 am Post Subject:
Joey, I agree with you...I'd let them know (some how)... I'm done...other than that...I'd cease all communication with them...
Let us know if anything else pops up..remember you can file for just about anything in small claims court, so she 'might' go that way..but still has to receive a judgement (i don't think she could get one)...doubt seriously ANY attorney would take it...so if she does file in small claims, you and your daughter just show up and tell the truth, that's it, (you don't need nor is it adviseable to have an atty in small claims court)...I think the judge will tell them the same thing their insurance carrier did...''it's all you folks''..
Let us know if anything else pops up or we can be of futher assistance..
Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 01:37 am Post Subject: Uh oh
Came across some legal stuff online showing that the one that borrows the car is responsible for reimbursing the owner for the deductible in the event of an accident.
More to follow....
Posted: Mon May 11, 2009 03:47 am Post Subject:
Came across some legal stuff online showing that the one that borrows the car is responsible for reimbursing the owner for the deductible in the event of an accident.
Joye, I'm sure that something is state specific. :( I'd definitely search more on this line and put on the board. As far I know that in cases where the volume of damage exceeds the owner's auto limit, the borrower's auto policy might kick-in to compensate the remaining amount.
Between, can you let me know which state you are from? We may then check into your state's laws as well.
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