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 Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: Seeking advice on next step in accident claim |
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Hi,
I'm dealing with a bit of a complicated insurance claim and I'm not sure what is the next step to take to get things moving along.
The backstory: My car was parked on the street outside my building when 2 cars collided. The collision caused one of the cars (an F150) to slide into my car damaging the door. Both parties claimed the other ran the light and no one stayed to be a witness. I was upstairs in my apartment at the time, so I have no idea who is at fault either.
I've been talking with the F150 gentleman's insurance provider (State Auto). They took my side of the story and have even sent out an adjuster to look at my car. The other person is with All-State, but they have never sent me an adjuster.
State Auto wants to pay 50% of my repair with All-State paying the other 50% since they can't determine fault in the wreck. The State Auto claims rep keeps telling me that she can't get ahold of anyone at All-State to move forward. I called All-State myself and they said they have no liability in my claim.
I contacted my insurance company and the only thing they tell me is to file a claim against my own insurance, pay the deductible and get it fixed, which I am hesitant to do given that I'm not at fault.
At this point, I'm not sure what the next step is. This has been going on for 45+ days now and each week's call to the State Auto rep ends with the same "I can't get a hold of all-state" excuse.
Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated.
Thanks!
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carpeaqua
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Yup, file the claim with your own carrier. Yes, you will need to initially pay your deductible to have the vehicle repaired but think about this... were are you right now? If you file with your own carrier you know you will at least get 50% of your deductible back (from State Auto). Your carrier _should_ also attempt to collect the other 50% from State Farm but this is up to your carrier.
This situation relies heavily on state law. There is something called Joint and Several that may apply. Some states say if one of the people in the accident causes a certain amount of the loss to a 3rd party that they need to pay the 3rd party 100% of the loss. They can then attempt recovery from the other at-fault person. Many states don't have J&S. Some that do state in order to collect 100% from one of the parties they have to be at least 10% at fault. There is a slight possibility that the State Auto adjuster might not know this.
IMHO State Auto is doing the correct thing. Either they know they have liability or they are just willing to pay 50% in order to get the claim settle with you, the innocent 3rd party. 50% of your loss is probably not a lot of money so its easier just to offer it. Or perhaps they know their driver is at least partially at fault.
One of the problems with SF is that the company is set up poorly. Rather then staff correctly they have "Teams" answer their co-workers phones. These team members are suppose to be able to answer questions when the actual adjuster is not available (and they are never available) but you can't just pick up someone else's file and know everything about it. If State Auto cannot talk to the actual adjuster, they can't plead their case and try to convince the actual adjuster to offer the other 50%.
There is a down side to filing with your own carrier in that you don't know how aggressive they will be in trying to collect the other 50% of your deductible. While _most_ carriers are aggressive in recovery, they may just take the 50% being offered by State Auto and call it a day. Also, the only other recourse they have is to file in Inter-company Arbitration (as long as all parties are members). IAF is not like a court of law. They operate by a different set of rules. If a carrier does not layout their arguments so a 5 year old can understand them, AFI can rule against them. Most recovery adjusters have experience with AFI and know this so they know that they have to write a good argument. But one of the problems with AFI is that they _only_ consider what the carrier can prove. In a court of law you'd have a judge that may be willing to look at these two parties, know that they are insured and simply rule against State Farm for the other 50% just that you, as an innocent party, gets paid. The point I'm trying to make is that you could also file in small claims court against State Farm _and_ State Auto to see if this would get State Farm to pay your claim. This would be State Farm pay a lot of money to an attorney so perhaps at that point they would just settle for the 50%. But they may fight... and you may loose the court case. Plus it would cost a little money to file. If your deductible is $500 or less, it might be better just to roll the dice and file under your own policy. That would be my recommendation.
One last thing... _you_ may want to call State Farm and speak to the adjuster handling the claim (not a team member). Tell the adjuster the amount of your loss, that State Auto is offering to paying the other 50% right now and as such, State Farm could settle the claim right now and the adjuster could close his/her file. Otherwise this is just going to drag on and on and State Farm may end up paying more once it goes to Inter-company Arbitration. Basically your trying to "sell" this good settlement.
Personally, if your loss was under $10,000, I'd just pay the other 50% and move on to the next claim. |
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tcope
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reply. I am in Indiana and and from a bit of Googling it seems that Joint and Several is not applicable in the state unfortunately. It's a $1,700 repair bill and I have a $1000 deductible, so it's not a ton of damage to be repaired, which is partially why the whole thing has frustrated me so much. It's not _that_ much money.
I'll try to call the other company early this week as a last ditch effort. Thanks for the guidance.
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carpeaqua
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yup, having a $1000 ded makes it difficult.
I'd pressure the State Farm adjuster (no co-workers) into accepting the other 50% liability. That is, let them know its only $1700, and that the other 50% is only $850. You might want to point out that you have a $1000 ded so filing under your policy is not much of an option so you'd probably need to file in small claims court against both drivers and/or owners. Let them know you understand their position but also that defending the case would certainly cost much more then $850 and that they might even have to pay defense costs (probably around $4000) and might be required to pay more then 50%. The other option is to simply pay the remaining 50% ($850) and close the claim. Let the adjuster know that you think State Autos offer of 50% is fair and that they are certainly making an effort to settle this loss.
If that does not work, speak to a supervisor at State Farm and make the same argument.
Unless they have pretty good proof that their insured is not liable (more then just the drivers statement), 50% is a good deal for them. |
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tcope
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There is a down side to filing with your own carrier in that you don't know how aggressive they will be in trying to collect the other 50% of your deductible. |
When its certainly a concern, you may still prefer to file a case with your insurer. It’d make the claim process faster. So, if you want to get your car repaired, contact your insurer and file the claim. Already a considerable amount of time has lapsed and how much more time it’ll take is not known.
Tcope, does the insurer have a time limit within which they have to pursue the subrogation? and, what would happen to the deductible paid by the policyholder if the insurer don’t try hard enough for the recovery? |
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jeorge
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Hi carpeaqua,
Definitely, as state auto was not 100% at-fault they wouldn't be eager to settle for 100%. It's sometimes difficult to determine the at-fault party under such circumstances. But, there are other things that I'm interested to know more about. Did the cars collide face-to-face? Did the front side of F150 hit your car? I'm just a bit curious to know it!
Steven |
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steven
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Tcope, does the insurer have a time limit within which they have to pursue the subrogation? and, what would happen to the deductible paid by the policyholder if the insurer don’t try hard enough for the recovery? |
I don't know of any requirement for ones own carrier to pursue recovery at all. I don't know of any that would not though. The ded is the amount that the insured is responsible for when filing a claim. There is no promise that it will be recovered. For example, if ones own carrier were to accept the 50% off and that is all, they would simply refund 50% of their own insured's ded. This is completely under the control of the carrier... the insured does not have any say so whatsoever on how the carrier settles the claim even though the insured's ded is involved. But let me say that I've almost always seen carriers be pretty aggressive in recovery... well, almost always. |
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tcope
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:28 am Post subject: |
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Oh! Thanks for clarifying, Todd.
I think its quite justifiable on the part of the insurer for being aggressive for the recovery. IMO it'd affect their profitability as well. They simply don't lose out the money that they otherwise can preserve. But I've also experienced insurers being lax in pursuing a subro. And, its quite frustrating on behalf of the customers since they expect to get their deductibles back.
However, supposing that the insurer chooses to recover the amount, does it always have to recover the deductible as well? I was wondering… what if the insurer decides not to recover the deductible paid by the claimant. Can they do it? |
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jeorge
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:27 am Post subject: |
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A carrier is always going to ask for the amount they paid and their insured's deductible. Do they have a right to ask for the deductible? Probably not legally... but it really needs to be handled by the carrier as the insured's policy states that the carrier is subrogated to the insureds right to collect. So _anything_ paid by the at fault carrier needs to go to the other insurance company. So how could the at fault carrier pay the deductible and not for the other amount of the property damage. That really can't (another way to look at it is what makes the payment a "deductible" payment... it's all money). So the at-fault carrier really needs to pay the entire property damage payment to the subrogating carrier.
Now, if the at fault carrier is going to pay 100% then they could issue a deductible payment to the other vehicle owner directly and then later pay the subrogating carrier as everyone is going to get 100%.
To get hyper technical, an insured's deductible is the amount of the loss that the insured agrees to loose. This is in the policy with their carrier. So for example... your auto policy states you have a deductible. If you file with your carrier you _agreed_ that you'd basically be out your deductible amount. So if your carrier settles your claim at 50% with the other carrier, your carrier only has to give you back 50% of your deductible. That is, you can't argue with their settlement. You could probably pursue the other 50% of your deductible directly with the other carrier (good luck) but you don't have a valid complaint against your carrier as to how they settled the claim and therefor, how much of your deductible they accepted.
I'm not sure if that made sense. Also, I agree... carriers are usually pretty aggressive when it comes to recovery. Recovery units are usually evaluated on how much they collect and it does not count against them how much they spend to collect. |
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tcope
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
| Quote: | | You could probably pursue the other 50% of your deductible directly with the other carrier (good luck) but you don't have a valid complaint against your carrier as to how they settled the claim and therefor, how much of your deductible they accepted. |
If I may pursue my deductible (the remaining 50%) with the other carrier and finally succeed, then I guess that's reason enough to complain against my carrier.
Logically, I don't think any carrier should ask for the deductible. The deductible could by no means be termed as their expense. Why should they get reimbursed for that!
Steven |
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steven
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:00 am Post subject: |
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So, shall I take it that the third party insurer might or might not pay the entire loss? And if they settle for less than 100% then the insured is going to receive only a percentage of his deductibles back.
Now, who would decide for what amount the insurer would subrogate the other insurer? Is their a rule that govern such situations or it purely depends on the discretion of the subrogating insurance company? |
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jeorge
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
| Quote: | | And if they settle for less than 100% then the insured is going to receive only a percentage of his deductibles back. |
Yes, by going through tcope's last post I'd also assume the same.
| Quote: | | Recovery units are usually evaluated on how much they collect and it does not count against them how much they spend to collect. |
The collection expenses have certainly been increased under the current economic downturn and it's one the leading factors that affected our industry returns.
Steven |
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steven
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Did the cars collide face-to-face? Did the front side of F150 hit your car? I'm just a bit curious to know it! |
The Expedition (All-State) clipped the passenger side of the F150 (State Auto) near the rear which caused the F150 to spin and then land its front bumper into my driver side door.
I've tried contacting All-State's adjuster but am coming up empty.
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carpeaqua
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And if they settle for less than 100% then the insured is going to receive only a percentage of his deductibles back. |
Yes, the insured would get the proportioned share... | Quote: | | Now, who would decide for what amount the insurer would subrogate the other insurer? |
if the two carriers can reach an agreement between themselves they do...if not typcially it goes to arbitration..the arb board rules and this ruling is binding.. | Quote: | | Is their a rule that govern such situations |
none i've ever seen | Quote: | | or it purely depends on the discretion of the subrogating insurance company? |
yes, in all instances i've seen.. | Quote: | | I contacted my insurance company and the only thing they tell me is to file a claim against my own insurance, pay the deductible and get it fixed, which I am hesitant to do given that I'm not at fault. |
Well this really is all they can offer you and the best thing (IMO) for you to do...your carrier will pay for your repair minus your deductible, then your carrier will pursue both other carriers and come to some sort of an agreement, or if not someone (your carrier) will file it in arbitration and eventually will get a ruling...This would be considered a 'non-chargeable' accident and you would not see a rate increase for this, as it's a non-at fault loss...I understand you not wanting to pay anything...but what has waiting cost you so far? You've been without a car for how long? Another word of caution, do not accept this 50% offer from the one carrier that is actually working on this claim...you cannot give up your carriers right of recovery...in other words you can't take the 50% then file with your carrier....
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Another word of caution, do not accept this 50% offer from the one carrier that is actually working on this claim...you cannot give up your carriers right of recovery...in other words you can't take the 50% then file with your carrier.... |
I put in one final call to All-State today as a last ditch resort. If that doesn't work, I guess I'll be out $1000 for a while. I'm tired of dealing with it. Just gets under my skin that I'm being put out more than I think I should given I wasn't directly involved in the accident.
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carpeaqua
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