Accident with UPS truck

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:09 pm   Post subject: Accident with UPS truck  

I was also in a car accident head on with a ups international truck. The vehicle had to be towed because it shut off no power what so ever. The insurance appraiser did an estimate on just the body damage stated the hood would not open on inspection and also he stated the vehicle was drivable which it was not. His estimate was for a used front clip and the rest was for paint and labor and the amount was for 8632.53 before my 500.00 ded. Now I drive a 2004 Chrysler Pacifica and i also have gap insurance and don't feel safe that they found everything wrong with it and I am really not sure what the ACV is for my vehicle. Is there anything I can do to get the insurance company to total it. Thanks...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:59 am   Post subject:   

Welcome to the forums, hang out some of the adjusters will be along soon to help you out. Sounds like a lot of damage for a 2004, seems like they would have totalled it out. You can go to edmunds and plug in your vehicle information and it should tell you what the car would have valued at. goodluck.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:28 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
I WAS ALSO IN A CAR ACCIDENT HEAD ON WITH A UPS INTERNATIONAL TRUCK.




Please clarify the word Also, were you into some other accident in the recent time? was it also a car accident? If so then you may like to know that the insurance company will only pay for the damages occurred in this accident, and not for any prior damages.



Honestly, you can't exert any pressure to the insurance company to total your car. The adjuster is a professional the company has hired to deal with the claim. If is case you wish to dispute with his decision you may summon an independent adjuster to do the evaluation, and present the estimate to your insurer. But, hiring an independent adjuster may cost you dearly at the same time. Hence, you should apply your best judgement before taking decision.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:41 am   Post subject:   

Hey Brian, you can run your vehicle in the NADA site, you may get an idea about the ACV of the car from the site. Also may care to furnish some more detail about the damages, its millage etc. That may help the adjuster around the forums to offer you some help.



Thanks,

Linda Maxwell


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:53 am   Post subject:   

First, where you hurt in the accident 'cause YOUR YELLING LIKE WE CAN'T HEAR YOU! All caps are rude.



What will happen is that the shop will open the hood to the vehicle and let the appraiser know it can be reinspected or just let the appraiser know what additional damages there are to the vehicle. So there _will_ be supplemental damages written up. Appraisers are very good at what they do (except for me). They will usually have a good idea if additional damages may total out a vehicle. If they think it will, they will reinspect the vehicle once it's at the shop and before they start work on it.



I'd recommend that you call your insurance adjuster and let them know you think the vehicle is a total loss and that you really don't want it repaired if it's close and if they can manage to consider it a total loss. Basically your asking them to review the repair cost before the repairs are started to see if it meets the threshold for a total loss. Most carriers will consider a vehicle a total loss when it's repair cost is 80% of its value. But if they overlook this and start work on the vehicle, they almost always continue with the repairs even if the cost does exceed 80% of it's value.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:51 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
Please clarify the word Also,
I split it from another thread...the OP had not created a new thread and just added it to an existing one...


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:35 pm   Post subject: Just say "NO" to clipping  

If your insurer is actually suggesting that you have your vehicle turned to a chryslerstein, which is what a clip really is, (one car created from two different vehicles), you should consult collision repair shops in your area to find one who vehemently opposes this type of repair to assist you.



Today's unibody construction requires specific repair procedures recommended by your vehicle's manufacturer. Don't believe any person or insurer that states that this type of repair is industry acceptible or insurer approved.



I could post links of clipped cars that were subsequently wrecked, but the carnage would be too graphic for this web site.



No manufacturer recommends this procedure or will condone it. Most repair organizations and associations say always refer to the manufacturer specifications on repairs. Insurers do not repair cars, they pay for repairs, or indemnify you for your losses. Courts do not consider insurers experts at auto repairs.



If it were my vehicle I would channel one hundred percent of the liability back to the insurer and make them select a shop and authorize the repairs and then have a post repair inspector assess the repair. When it is proven that this repair was against manufacturer recommendations, I would then suggest you talk to an attorney to discuss bad faith if the insurer does not buy the vehicle back and total it.



You could also accept the undisputed portion of the cost of repairs and invoke your appraisal clause. You can easily find a repair expert that would serve as your appraiser to refute this type of repair. The only reason any insurer would clip a car, would be because they found it cost effective regardless of your future safety.



Some adjusters have been around since the pre-unibody days when a clip was used to describe the outer sheetmetal only. This is a different issue. Only original parts from your manufacturer should be used to make a structural repair to your vehicle according to their recommendations for installation.



Additional consumer help can be found at www.ican2000.com and www.collisionconsulting.com , or www.theccre.com. These web site are made up of consumer concious shop owners that won't steer you into a poor decision or repair if you need help in your area.



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:56 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
If your insurer is actually suggesting that you have your vehicle turned to a chryslerstein, which is what a clip really is, (one car created from two different vehicles), you should consult collision repair shops in your area to find one who vehemently opposes this type of repair to assist you.
Can you cite _any_ information that would support you claim, that bolting a front end would somehow be a "bad" thing? The sites you posted don't even address this information... 2 of them just dealt with Diminishment of Value and the other did not mention front clips.



I've never heard of any repair shop not wanting to install and front clip on a vehicle.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:33 pm   Post subject: In response to clipping  

The next to last paragraph in my post spoke of the difference between bolting a clip assembly front end as opposed to a welded clipped front end.



But if you need examples I will locate some references on why you should not clip a car as I go through my data.



For starters



https://www.vehicleinfo.com/articles.php?id=16



http://abrn.search-autoparts.com/abrn/Hands-On+Management/Is-sectionin g-viable/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/489143



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:38 pm   Post subject:   

Welcome to the forums Mike of the Ozarks, love that name, LOL. Hope you find you stay here a good one.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 7:00 pm   Post subject: Here is a sample of cars being clipped  

If the link works, click on the page so you can scroll to the bottom to read all of the pro's and cons. Many states are recognizing car clipping as detrimental to consumer's safety and branding titles of any vehicle that has been clipped so the next purchaser can be sure to run from any Frankencar.



http://www.nwt.tec.ok.us/~jeffo/docs/textbooks/structural_parts_steel2  /module7.pdf



The key word is liability. If an insurer is unwilling to accept the liability for clipping a car, why should any shop stick their neck out for a future potential liability that their own garagekeepers policy would not protect them from?



I have personally clipped 3 cars in the past 25 years, and even put my daughers in them, BUT knowing now what I didn't know and understand then and with liability and safety being an issue, I would not hesistate to kick any clipping job to the curb. When an insurer says I want to clip your car, they are really saying, I want to fix your car as cheap as possible and someone else to accept all the risks involved and any downstream liability for that repair.



Mabry vs statefarm court case will reveal why insurers are liable when they specify a repair. The key is to force your insurer to authorize this repair. They will more than likely not, because they do not want the associated liability.



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:05 pm   Post subject: Thank you Lori, and August for the welcome.  

I only hope to contribute from the perspective of a business owner who's livelihood is affected by the decisions made by insurers. By exerting one's independence from another industry that has a stranglehold on it's ability to make a reasonable profit, I run counter to many insurers beliefs.



While I believe that some insurers, adjusters, appraisers, independent contracted appraisers are inherently opposed to my industry making a profit at running our businesses on our terms, I believe most on the insurer side have the policy holders welfare in mind. You are only doing what you were taught was right and that we have to negotiate for your business and negotiate on behalf of consumer without benefit of being attorneys or public adjusters.



You guys operate in a cut throat world of your own, with other insurers attempting to gain market share by swaying non insured customers to insure with you. In order for insurers to remain competitive against each other and remain solvent with happy stockholders and claims managers, you obviously have to control costs of repairs. The problem is that the insurance industry as a whole, understands that the collision repair industry is leaderless and not united and has it's own problems. Therefore the collision industry has allowed itself to become manipulated to support insurers by direct repair businesses giving deep concessions and discounts back to insurers in exchange for referral business. Hence, the division of shopowners that angrily fight for what they feel they are owed and fight against their customers being manipulated into using any drp shops.



Many in my industry look at this as extortion; No different than what Al Capone and his entourage of misfits exerted on business owners. The insurance industry can not control oem manufactures and those costs with exception of mandated use, of what we believe to be, inferior parts to indemnify their policyholders. Insurers can not control each other so the collision industry is the easy target. Why should another entire industry give up profits so that another industry can make billions.



Quite frankly shops are charging 40 to 50 percent less for their work than comparable skills in the mechanical side of the equation. Manipulated data base times are used to control costs. Data base providers market their products to insurers on who best can show that by using their estimating platforms that they can save insurers money. (at again the shops expense) If you have three major database providers all coming up with lower and lower times allowed to perform procedures and they do not match each other, it is obvious to anyone looking that data base times, they appear to be are altered to favor insurers. After all, if data base groups all did the same time studies, they would all come to the same conclusion as to how much time is a reasonable time for a procedure and then how would they market themselves. Add that to the fact that these times are calculated based on the replacement of new undamaged parts. You really have to ask yourself, when was the last time repairers changed parts on vehicles that were not damaged.



This is why you may see some shop owners express themselves as they do when they come here. I can't speak on behalf of anyone but myself, but I feel I can engage in civilized debate or dialogue. You may have to accept ideas different than your own perceptions. The collision industry does not owe the insurance industry cost control measures designed to alleviate profit in our own field at our expense. We have heard you only have to work a little faster, a little smarter, and in larger volume and you can be profitable. Many shops bought into that hook line and sinker, and they are foundering now, because their supposed partners bailed on them after they invested heavily to the needs of insurers only to be told we no longer need many of you.



So this is why you may see some angry people challenge your beliefs and why you may encounter a departure in the way many shop owners conduct business in the future with an industry that promised to be partners to another.



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:40 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
No manufacturer recommends this procedure or will condone it.
Yet here is a paragraph from the article at autoparts.com that you linked:



"Liability concerns keep growing. As a repairer, sectioning is your choice. Making such a repair based only on experience and not on the manufacturer's sectioning repair procedures may result in sectioned joints either weaker or stronger than designed. How do you make a decision on when to section?" So it would seem from that statement that manufactures _do_ have a procedure in place for replacing a clip. It goes on:



"When estimating a damaged vehicle, keep in mind that sectioning can be an effective and economical repair. It also can create problems. If you have damage that could qualify for a sectioning procedure, make a few quick checks. " It does also state the following:

"Information providers develop their suggested sectioning labor times based on procedures from one or more authoritative sources, including the vehicle manufacturer, independent research reports and I-CAR's general sectioning procedures. "Based on" indicates some documentation behind their recommended labor time, not an endorsement of the procedure nor specific lists of steps to be done. That is still your responsibility." So the site points out that there are guidelines from the manufactures and I-CAR but that these companies do not endorse replacing a clip. This is a _far_ cry from not recommending or agree with the process. Of course, would a manafature agree with the use of any used parts? Lastly the site sums it all up:

"Sectioning can be a valid repair choice, but not always."



As far as vehicleinfo.com, they only state that WreckCheck does not agree with repalcing a clip. Now THERE is a company I've heard of. I once had the pleasure of reading a diminishment value report from them. At best it was laughable. They have a lengthy statement about how they arrived at the diminished value they came up with. I'll summarize... pulled it out of a hat.



I also read your last post and the link. So it appears that their are repair guidelines for replacing clips. Question... if done correctly and in the right situations, are repalcement of clips acceptable? Obviously the answer is yes!



Quote:
Don't believe any person or insurer that states that this type of repair is industry acceptible or insurer approved.
Almost all of the link you provided don't seem to agree with your statement above. So should those site not be believed?



I would say that it's not the replacement of the clip that is inheretnly bad, it's what work is involved in adding it to the vehicle. In many cases I've read that it's bolted on. But in other cases it appears that it's welded. I'm betting everyone would agree that excessive or incorrect welds could lead to problems.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:36 am   Post subject: Please pay close attention tscope.  

Sectioning isn't always clipping, but clipping is a form of sectioning.



When a repair procedure describes sectioning , they are talking about taking a donor part, new or used and welding it according to manufacturers specifications at a prescribed location on a structural part such as a hinge pillar or lower frame rail



Clipping is sectioning half of one car and part of another. So while sectioning may be an endorsed procedure, clipping a car is not. They are saying to the repairer do so at your own risk based on your skills and information you may obtain from a source absent of information supplied by the manufacturer of the vehicle. Govern yourselves accordingly!



Do you really think any manufacturer is going to endorse clipping and say hey, chop our cars in half and put them back together, we'll guarantee they want come apart in a heavy wreck or if the air bags will even function as designed, because now, Mr. Repairer, you have re-engineered our vehicle.



Speaking in my own opinion and maybe not the opinion of many associations, who or what is I car? I car is an entity built by insurers for the express purpose of insurers with sponsors, along with vendors associated in the industry created to endorse Insurance desired repairs. In my strong opinion, this is an insurance driven entity designed to allow the insurance industry and collision industry to interact, (more of that partnership stuff) and generate revenue so that shops can acquire certificates to hang on a wall that insurers feel are required to impress their policyholders and meet drp requirements. They offer classes on a level that the non professional can comprehend and at an exorbitant fee. This way some insurance adjusters (not pointing fingers at anyone here) can boast to vehicle owners that they are I car certified to determine the extent of your damage or that they have attended classes on airbags, so I am qualified to tell the shop how to repair your vehicle. Great, grab a wrench and do the job after a one hour course.



That's not to say that you can not learn something from an I car class. It's a good starting point for the untrained, but one should get a shop manual or technical manual and read or go to a continuing education class at a technical school if you really want to be qualified to speak on repairs with any authority and experience. I once billed on an invoice materials for weld thru coating and the adjuster called the vehicle owner to tell them he was I car Master qualified and that he wasn't paying for welding rods as all cars are mig welded now. Weld thru coating is a product sprayed or applied between welded panels to ensure corrosion protection not a rod to weld with for anyone who does not know the difference. Rolling Eyes



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:08 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
Sectioning isn't always clipping, but clipping is a form of sectioning.
All of the information was used from the links you provided. If they did not pertain to replacing clips then it was not really what was asked for.
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