Who do you suppose they sell all that data to?

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 3:45 pm   Post subject: yes  

yes thats correct! one is enough I suppose

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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:04 pm   Post subject:   

I don't see a doublepost that you are speaking of, if there is, it's because I am enjoying my morning drinking coffee with friends and the wireless network caused a glitch.



Sorry not going to chase you documentation today, maybe tomorrow. Those discounts do not show up on insurance estimates, it showed up on the final invoice of the dealership showing a negotiated discount with their insurance partner.



Funny thing, when you get to audit other shops estimates you get to see all the labor discrepencies, shops that get paid for procedures and materials that are capped.



I am glad you posted that statement about capping being illegal. Insurers like to tell shops , I went to bat for you all the way up the corporate ladder but they will not remove that cap. There is no statutes regarding capping although it could be construed to be fraudulent business practices. Then again it isn't my policy or duty to prove my inrurance company is not paying all of a claim that I am not a party to. That is an issue between the policy holder and their insured if they want to. This is why it is stupid for associations to get legislation passed that even mentions that insurers and collision repairs are tied in any way, it will set a precedent that insurers will abuse as usual. Another thing it will do is codify that a drp relationship is legal whereas now it does not. Another thing that the statute requiring insurers to use all of the estimating guides will do is codify the guides or data bases that are always changing to the detriment of collision repairers.



Those issues will never affect me because my customer is not the insurer. The lobbyists of insurers who have deep deep pockets have managed in other states to so dilute legislation designed to protect consumers and shops that they would have been better off having the legislation stopped before signing. Hopefully Missouri will not follow suit with the misguidence of other state associations that have failed.



I might have used your potty mouth term for "prostituting meaning selling yourself for money" instead of the one you used, if I was in a forum that it was considered appropriate. I thought the forum was a little classier, but you prove that wrong with your vitriolic accusations, venoumous falsehoods directed at me.



I told you guys you should have taken the weekend off, now you'll be back at work tomorrow all wore out from trying to paint me ever the misfit. And I didnt go to your web page til I saw you and T and lakemen and about 3 others had a curiosity that drove them to my web page that has nothing on it, before I went to your page. So quit stalking me Lori, gosh, working yourself into a frazzle trying to find dirt on an honest business man so you can coerce and intimidate.



I have a tape recording of a regional claims manager telling me that he is going to tell all my customers that I will not work from his estimates ssimply because I would not agree to cost shift my final invoice so he would not set a precedence that they would pay for a ligitimate procedure.

Why would I want to fight a huge corporation that would hire people like you to discredit me for being an honest businessmen who believes his customer is the vehicle owner.



I'll scan those docs for you tomorrow or the next day when I get time.



On the matter of paint and materials, many paint companies use an averaging system to price their paint. Not all companies charge more for some than others. I see where one company is going to cut back three stage paint allowance to that of two stage. Another manipulation of our industry. When you can show that shops with agreements can give away paint and materials, they try to force other shops to accept those caps and thresholds because of prevailing practices of shops that continue to prostitute themselves to insurers to remain on the DRP drip or sow's teat.



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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 8:13 pm   Post subject:   

Well I had to come to the shop today anyway. A customer that was putting flowers on her mothers grave accidently left the keys in her car and it fell into gear and rolled down an incline. Some of us actually care about our customers and take time to help them. It's not like those bogus insurance ads where he agents go find replacement vehicles or put on scuba gear to pull their insureds belongings out of the pond. While I was here, I decided to respond for what will be the last time addressing the subjects in this and the other thread.





I have given it some thought, I have the documents scanned and have permission from the vehicle owners to share. But if you want to see them come over to my board and display some of the bravado and mistatements about the practices and antics of insurers and their DRP partners. Convince a seasoned group of shop owners and an attorney and some industry leadership that what you say is gospel.



I am weary of playing in your sandbox where you get to make up the rules and moderate. Go fetch me this Mike, prove it to me Mike, you are a liar mike. Just like Jack Nicholson said, "You can't handle the truth". Let's face it. No one is watching this thread but insurance people and some shop owners and it serves little purpose for consumers because the content information is not within the scope of their understanding.



The porn site as you call it at Pro Discussions is not on the shop owner's board. We had a difficult time keeping insurance bad boys and girls from destroying the consumer site with filth. Myself and many others donated money to a software engineer to clean up our board to keep the nefarious types out and it has filters. Some of Lori's potty mouth words would have been filtered out. So don't use that as an excuse to not educate yourself to the truth of the industry.



Come on over if you want to sling some mud and call everyone there liars as well. If you don't it will be your own admission that you can't face reality and the truth. Simply post that you would like to see a copy of the line item discount for parts to me and I will post it there, and many others will contibute.



As far as I am concerned , my participation in this thread is finished, I will take the liberty of speaking directly to consumers in the future and will not respond to the provoked abuse and attacks by the moderater and her ilk. You do not have to register or share your true identity over at ProD. I am sure your employer would not advise you of doing it either if they allow you to post at all. All we are doing here is rehashing information I have already proven to you anyway. Come on over the water's fineeeeeee!



http://www.prodiscussions.com/cgi-bin/pro_discussions.pl



I think I'll spend some time over at Edmunds.com helping people in their claims forum. Its not so heavily loaded with insurer propogandists and has a nice blend of attorneys, experts, shop owners, DV knowledgeable people, salesmen, insurers, etc.



this is too typical and a good read on what kind of a battle people face when dealing with some insurers. Found on the Edmunds site.



www.prine.net/farmers.htm



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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2008 6:05 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
this is too typical and a good read on what kind of a battle people face when dealing with some insurers. Found on the Edmunds site.
I read the emails and thought the adjuster did a great job. The poster claims to be an insurance broker... clearly not in the P&C area, not an insurance broker, or about the dumbest one I've seen. The poster cannot understand why an insurance company would not pay more for repairs then the value of the vehicle? The poster also thinks that maintenance items should increase the value of the vehicle (including a detailing job). The poster also thinks the threat of sending a bill to the Farmers insured is going to change anything. Clearly this "insurance broker" does not have a clue about insurance.



One of the problems is that poster feels a 1992 Mercedes is going to be worth a small fortune in a few years. Obviously the poster has an emotional attachment to the vehicle so he/she probably feels that it's worth much more then it is. I can understand this but it certainly makes the claim difficult to settle.



After the poster speaks to his mechanic, he/she understands that they vehicle is required to be a total loss. The claim then starts to move forward again.



Again, one of the big hurdles is that the poster thinks keeping the vehicle in good running order somehow adds to it's value. These items maintain it's value.



The poster also thinks a new full sized rental is insufficient. Poster thinks compensation for a Cadillac at $100 is correct. Sorry, this is just not even close to being correct.



Poster agrees to waive the charges for the time he/she has spent on the claim? Again... not owed.



I'm also reading and reading and reading and have yet to get to the point where the poster tells the adjuster what the vehicle is correctly worth and why. I've read where the poster comes up with an $11k figure but this is the Farmers offer plus maintenance costs... hardly a good determination of value. Also the adjuster make a good and valid point... adding the exact amount spend on maintaining the vehicle is obviously incorrect. If I replace the old worn out brakes for $500, the vehicle's value does not all of a sudden increase $500. Does _anyone_ disagree? The adjuster then gives examples of book values (not one, rather several) clearly showing the value of the vehicle to be in the range of their offer. This is a far cry from the posters made up value.



The poster then turns into an attorney and tells Farmers that leaving the his vehicle at the body shop where it's incurring storage will not be his problem, as the adjuster informs, rather Farmers will be paying for it. He could not be more incorrect. Farmers has made the offer to move it to a storage free facility. Ultimately the poster has the legal obligation to mitigate his loss. He thinks he's running up the bill against Farmers but he's really just digging a hole for himself/herself.



I read to the very end of the page and _NEVER_ found that the poster indicated a valid value of his/her vehicle. The adjuster even asked him/her to provide this information so that they could review it but the poster does not seem interested in supporting his/her claim.



I've seen this a lot before. It's a shame that the poster feels the need to be belligerent. Things could work in his/her favor is he/she would simply act like a professional. Not wanting to have a verbal conversation with the adjuster is just stupid. Writing notes back and forth does not allow for the proper sharing of ideas. The poster is just hurting himself/herself be demanding this.
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 10:40 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
The porn site as you call it at Pro Discussions is not on the shop owner's board.
The heck it isn't! It's under the ''humor'' tab! Look again MIKE....
Quote:
Some of Lori's potty mouth words would have been filtered out.
I had never heard the term 'whore' used for a body shop in my life until I read it on that board....seriously....and as to my potty mouth...I got one, (not on this board) but I've got one....your favorite 'mike site' is full of cursing this site is not....well it's full of foul language when someone over there disagrees with you....as I said you all pounch and eat your own...I actually feel sorry for some of the shop owners that you can tell didn't read many threads prior to posting honest, sincere questions when BAM....attack....their gone...like sharks in a feeding frenzy..



You are so transparent..you go from ""I NEVER used that term'' to
Quote:
I might have used your potty mouth term for "prostituting
You offer up documentation to post, then when called out...you respond with

Quote:
Sorry not going to chase you documentation today, maybe tomorrow.
Quote:
I'll scan those docs for you tomorrow or the next day when I get time
Quote:
But if you want to see them come over to my board and display some of the bravado and mistatements about the practices and antics of insurers and their DRP partners.
Just more unsubstaniated bs....Why would I want to come over there and post? You 'eat' your own for not agreeing with you...I don't consider it fun to come and disrupt another's site Mike why would I? How is that my business? Just because you feel the need to troll doesn't mean everyone else does! I know they aren't going to agree with me...that's not a site for discussions at all! It's a site of statements!
Quote:
I am weary of playing in your sandbox where you get to make up the rules and moderate.
You cannot name one time I have ever 'moderated' one letter you've typed...



Quote:
I have a tape recording of a regional claims manager telling me that he is going to tell all my customers that I will not work from his estimates
That's a true statement right?



Quote:
On the matter of paint and materials, many paint companies use an averaging system to price their paint. Not all companies charge more for some than others
Get outta here...who does that? Seriously which paint supplier does that? I'm going to check that cause I don't buy it...
Quote:
I see where one company is going to cut back three stage paint allowance to that of two stage. Another manipulation of our industry
Would be correct if it were true...who? and where did you read this? I seriously doubt this one too...
Quote:
Come on over if you want to sling some mud and call everyone there liars as well. If you don't it will be your own admission that you can't face reality and the truth. Simply post that you would like to see a copy of the line item discount for parts to me and I will post it there, and many others will contibute.
Again Mike, I'm not a troll...if you have this proof that you say you have, and you offered to post it here on this board that you came to then post it...I have absolutely no intention to come and cause trouble on ''your'' board...why would I? that's just stupid...and once again proves you are lying about this documentation that YOU offered up!!! and is your norm, then can't produce, because IT DOESN'T EXSIST!!!
Quote:
Come on over the water's fineeeeeee!
I will NEVER...if after reading this thread someone using my name does post there, KNOW it's NOT me..have your webmaster check the computer it's coming from because I GAURANTEE YOU IT ISN'T ME...



Quote:
All we are doing here is rehashing information I have already proven to you anyway
No Mike you haven't proved a thing...oh wait a minute yes you have... Rolling Eyes


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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 1:27 pm   Post subject:   

You wouldn't recognize proof if it hit you in the nose. Check out Matrix Paint systems. The last time they hawked that paint line to me, that was the selling point. I haven't the time or inclination to do your fetching. If you read it you would still say it was not true.



You should stay here, You wouldn't last one day on that board, The bs o meter would sniff your lack of knowledge of the collision industry and the true sentiments of your lacky shops that serve only you instead of consumers.



Save your potty mouth for the lunch room exchanges of how you and your cronies get shops to beg you for work and how easy it is to lead them on when they prostitute themselves. You should continue to be an insurance mouthpiece over here, don't bless our board with your virtures, vitriol, and Lorisms. A professed know it all as yourself could learn something from some of the most independent free thinkers in the industry over there, rather than stand on a soap box here and dish out the propoganda that your employers and handlers would have you spew about things you do not seem to have a grasp of. Continue to lambast what you call it lies since you can't disprove otherwise.



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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:11 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Continue to lambast what you call it lies since you can't disprove otherwise.
Not sure what you are referring to... I think anyone can see that you've been called on most everything you've posted. I've posted documentation and facts that show most of what you've posted is incorrect. You simply then move on to more made up statements. I have no issues with what you post... as long as it's correct and not just purely made up thoughts represented as fact.



Mike, it seems your biggest gripe is that the insurance industry is trying (and I guess succeeded) in controlling body shops. I can understand that point of view... to a certain extent, it's true (we just disagree on the reason and semantics behind it). But then you also claim that this does not affect you... but then you indicate it does. Perhaps I'm just nit picking your posts.



As far as the site you mention... I read the posts. Not many have much substance at all. Most seem to be people complaining (which is fine) about things and they are not related to insurance. That site seems to be more in-line with body shop's... something I know little about. This site is about insurance... something I know quite well. I'd no more expect to be well received if I went there and starting touting body shop information like I knew what I was talking about then if someone from over there came here and acted like they knew the insurance industry.
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 6:04 pm   Post subject:   

Continue to believe as you wish. I have indeed supplied you with documentation, it just does not seem agree with your point of view so you simply say it isn't fact but do not prove otherwise. Others have emailed and thanked me for the truth.



Those people at the other board are discussing collision industry/ insurance industry relations today for example. The data providers now require a agreement clause that they have the rights to property uploaded and extracted from shop's computers. Who do you suppose they sell all that data to? They are also admonishing those industry leaders who think they can achieve a level playing field with insurers by enacting legislation that winds up biting them in the hind end. Yeah they're just a bunch of whiners, not. You'll simply say conspiracy theories and Lori will say bald faced lies.



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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:41 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
I have indeed supplied you with documentation, it just does not seem agree with your point of view so you simply say it isn't fact but do not prove otherwise.
See this is what I mean... you actually say that you spout fact and I've not done the same. You say this in the _same_ thread where you posted,
Quote:
How does it make you feel knowing a Chinese company is using kids in the production of parts you mandate.
and quoted an article to confirm this. I then pointed out that the article had _nothing_ to do with what you posted. I'll quote is here:
Quote:
As I mentioned, laughable... and typical. Here is the _REAL_ truth, quoted right from the article:



"Italians seize 30 tons of radioactive steel"

Last time I checked, we were in America not a Latin country. Let me get my globe out.... yup, still in America.



"The environmental protection police squad said the steel was destined for the industrial production of chimneys and pulleys, and long-term exposure could have been dangerous for workers handling it."

I just got back from my garage and checking my vehicle for a chimney. As I suspected, there was not one.



"The steel had been accidentally mixed during production with cobalt-60, a radioactive isotope of cobalt, police said."

Notice the word "accidentally", as in not normal.... was a one time occurrence (we learn what "accident" means in our secret insurance meetings).
You said radioactive parts were coming from China and LINKED TO AN ARTICLE ABOUT LATIN AMERICA, the PARTS WERE NOT VEHICLE PARTS, AND IT WAS AN "ACCIDENT". HELLO!???

You also stated the following:
Quote:
Were you aware that if the insurer or shop places a part not made by your manufacturer such as a radiator or condenser, the dealer most likely will attribute any failure in the system to the insurer mandated part, thus ruining your warranty.
and I explained:
Quote:
Here is one that I'm sure your familiar with, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.



The TRUTH is, the manufacture would need to prove that the aftermarket part caused the loss. How many people use aftermarket oil filters? How about gas that is not recommended by the manufacture? Why don't we hear about manufactures not honoring warranties because of these items? Huh, because it does not happen with any frequency.



Also, many carriers use aftermarket fender, deck lids, etc. People might not realize that this are not structural items on a vehicle. They are actually _designed_ to crumple and absorb the force of an impact.
and
Quote:
http://www.iihs.org/laws/testimony/pdf/testimony_slo_032100.pdf

"A car's cosmetic repair parts (often called crash parts) include fenders, door skins, bumper covers, and the like. In the continuing debate about whether such parts from aftermarket suppliers are as good as cosmetic parts from original-equipment manufacturers, the issue of safety keeps cropping up. Claims are made that using cosmetic crash parts from sources other than original-equipment manufacturers could compromise safety. But the fact is, the source of the parts is irrelevant to safety

because the parts themselves, except possibly the hood, serve no safety or structural function. They merely cover a car like a skin.'
as well as
Quote:
Toyota can _write_ whatever they want... but truth is, they don't void the warranty on their vehicle unless it can be shown that the AM part lead to a compromise. Again, I refer you to the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. Read it. I'll quote part of it here, "One of the most important provisions of the Act prohibits a warrantor from disclaiming or modifying any implied warranty whenever any written warranty is given or service contract entered into." I'll also quote someone who has read the Act, "This means that, under the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975, an automotive dealership/carmaker cannot void your warranty because your vehicle has been modified with aftermarket parts. They (the manufacturers) have to prove that the failure was the direct result of the installed aftermarket part."
So, again, your 100% incorrect. You think you can just post information and a link that has nothing to do with your claim as well as spouting off propaganda with no facts to back it up. You then claim that I've not provided anything to back up my statements? Perhaps you need to come down off the mountain, I suspect the lack of air is affecting your brain. You lost your credibility a long time ago and with every post you just keep proving it.
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 11:53 pm   Post subject:   

Again you proved my point that you only accept your sources and nobody elses. I have already posted documentation that shows the difference of how a/m sheetmetal does not fold or crumple as the oem sheetmetal did. What you don't seem to comprehend is that the timing mechanisms are so critical that the skins are a factor in the crumple zones and that altering them or using fenders that are double wall fenders as many are will not function identical to the oem parts and the insurer keeps trying to sell you that they do. GM has studies that circle can crapa parts studies.



Jack Gillis keeps trying to convince legislators that they are LKQ and even legislators recognize that they are not and are protecting consumers.



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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:54 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
I have already posted documentation that shows the difference of how a/m sheetmetal does not fold or crumple as the oem sheetmetal did.
Where was this posted....? Maybe on another web site....? Cause it was not in this thread. If you feel up to backing up those words, feel free to quote the documentation your mentioning.



I can save you some time... here is the quote where you mention this:
Quote:
T does not repair cars, he pays for, I mean indemnifies for losses. Most people are sharp enough to know that Taiwan knockoff parts arent even close to original parts quality. So how can a person that only pays for them have a clue as to the quality and fit. Those hoods are designed to crumple all right, but crumple in a certain fashion that works with the air bag timing mechanism.



Those aftermarket parts like like oil filters, air filters, water pumps etc often exceed manufacturer warranties, but aftermarket collision damage parts do not even come close. Toyota says and here is your proof T
You then quoted the following:
Quote:
Warranties: Toyota vehicle factory warranties transfer when repairs are completed with new Toyota Genuine Parts. The use of used salvage and/or imitation/counterfeit parts is not covered by the Toyota transferable limited warranty on such parts and all adjoining parts and systems which are caused to fall or trust by those parts.



Used Salvage: Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc., is an environmentally-conscious corporate citizen. We understand the merits of recycling and promote them. Additionally, we are concerned about our customers and maintaining Toyota vehicle image, value, functional and safety systems, and transferable factory warranties. Since Toyota does not warrant used salvage parts, we want to make sure customers are aware of the consequences of having used salvage parts installed on their vehicles. At this time, we believe there are no systems or processes in place to regulate the quality of used salvage parts in market. Therefore, we are concerned about improper use of used salvage parts, i.e., wrong application as well as the use of damage materials.



Supplemental Restraint Systems (SRS): Due to the critical nature of the supplemental Restraint Systems, also known as air bags, Toyota does not support the use of any used salvage or limitation parts for repair. Only new Toyota Genuine Parts should be used in repairs.
In no way does this state that AM parts do not perform as OEM. What Toyota DOES say is that they don't warranty those parts (of course they don't... they are not their parts. They come with their own warranty). That they are "concerned" about people using salvage parts (nothing to do with AM parts but gee... they don't even trust their own OEM part. They only "trust" the parts they make a huge profit on. Imagine that). The we finally get on point with this statement, "Supplemental Restraint Systems (SRS): Due to the critical nature of the supplemental Restraint Systems, also known as air bags, Toyota does not support the use of any used salvage or limitation parts for repair. Only new Toyota Genuine Parts should be used in repairs.". Now, where does that say AM don't fold like OEM? _Truth_ is, it doesn't... they probably don't want to get sued for making such a claim. They _only_ say they don't "support" it. Well of course they don't... they only "support" the parts that they make a huge profit from! They said it themselves... they don't even support their own used parts! Again, these are not AM, they are _perfectly_ good, EVERY reasonable shop will use them all day long, they ARE OEM and Toyota does not "support" even these! We can CLEARLY see why Toyota is making this statement.



But the bottom line, you _did not_ offer any documentation showing AM don't crumple like OEM parts. I renew my request that you back up your prior post with quotes. Or we can just let this post stand on it's own to show, yet again, that your are 100% incorrect.
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 9:59 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
You should stay here,
I intend to thank you...
Quote:
You wouldn't last one day on that board,
True, I'm not into 'that' scene...
Quote:
The bs o meter would sniff your lack of knowledge of the collision industry and the true sentiments of your lacky shops that serve only you instead of consumers.
I'll be sure and pass that compliment around to the boys...
Quote:
from some of the most independent free thinkers in the industry over there
LaughingLaughingLaughingLaughing
Quote:
I have no issues with what you post... as long as it's correct and not just purely made up thoughts represented as fact.
BINGO, we have both said that, I don't know about a hundred times!
Quote:
you simply say it isn't fact but do not prove otherwise
tcope and i have over and over and over showed documentation that what you are posting is well crap-ola....you don't even read you own ''documenation' well enough to realize in most cases you are contradicting yourself!
Quote:
If you feel up to backing up those words, feel free to quote the documentation your mentioning
Just like he was going to post all the proof here, then just 'decided' no, we'd need to go to the ins hate board for it..tcope we all know it doesn't exsist...wait, i smell a change of topic again! Rolling Eyes After you (tcope) went to all the trouble to post docs (i did the same about few months ago in another thread)..that an OEM manu. CANNOT void the factory warranty without PROVING the non oem part failed...he again two pages later spouted the exact same thing....man, didn't you promise...
Quote:
As far as I am concerned , my participation in this thread is finished,
Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes


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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:22 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
But the bottom line, you _did not_ offer any documentation showing AM don't crumple like OEM parts. I renew my request that you back up your prior post with quotes. Or we can just let this post stand on it's own to show, yet again, that your are 100% incorrect




That documentation is in the earlier threads on direct repair shops or one of several others discussing discusting a/m parts. Sorry too busy helping real people to educate you guys today. Knock yourselves out looking for it. You guys obviously arent really working the field, you have too much time to pontificate in here. Hope we don't see you over at Jobvent soon.


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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:38 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
That documentation is in the earlier threads on direct repair shops or one of several others discussing discusting a/m parts. Sorry too busy helping real people to educate you guys today. Knock yourselves out looking for it.
Again, laughable! SmileSmile You _claim_ that you've posted documentation then when your asked for it and shown that you did not, you suddenly get too busy to simply provide confirmation. Gee, I did not see that one coming. Smile Most people would be embarrassed to be caught not telling the truth. You claim how unsavory adjusters are but then you stoop to these levels. It's a joke.



"Helping" others? You mean people who still think you are honest and above-board?
tcope
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tcope
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:25 pm   Post subject:   

Great big gobs of grimey gopher guts T, does your mommy have to wipe your behind too?

Perfect avatar for you T.



Check out this treasure trove of government, court, gao studies to find some of the answers for yourself.



GM report and study on A/M Parts

http://www.princetonautobody.com/docs/pdf/GMSPO2.pdf



Generic parts do not make the grade

http://www.princetonautobody.com/Docs/PDF/Allianze.pdf



one study on A/M parts useage

http://www.princetonautobody.com/Docs/PDF/true2.pdf



Keep yourself busy today learning the truth instead of spouting insurance rhetoric. I am sure you say GM lied and real studies are bogus compared to your ability as an adjuster to see feel and touch a/m sheetmetal. See you over at Jobvent, are you going to use the same alias over there?



Now really T this is the last time I am coming back to this thread to expose your ineptitude.



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MikeoftheOzarks
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Location: in the missouri ozarks
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