The reports are from GM, a company in Germany and a body shop.

Message Author
ampm-bookmark
delicious-small Add to delicious
yahoomyweb-small Add to YahooMyWeb
blinklist-small Add to BlinkList
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:10 pm   Post subject:   

First, lets just be clear... this information was not posted as you claimed. So your posting new information. Just so we are clear on that.



I'm looking at the GM report and it's 6-7 years old! This is back when AM first came out! Things have changed _greatly_ over the past 6 years. On top of that the report was done my GM... not an unbiased independent 3rd party (how about if I post information from CAPA... would you accept that as fact?). The GM report mentions nothing about the AM part not folding like OEM... which is what we are discussing. Remember?



Second link... same issues, "This summer, AZT published the results of a

study on repairs with generic parts it carried out during 1999-2000". Also, again... this study focused solely on fit. Nothing about folding.



Third link... well do I need to say it? Yup, it won the oldest report award at over 10 years!. And again, it spoke only about fit, not folding.



This is getting old but I'll say it again.... you've failed yet again to provide any documentation to back up your claim. When asked you stated that it was provided. When this was shown to be incorrect you said that you did not have the time to provide the confirmation but then you did provide some links. But, as is typical, the documentation you provided had nothing to do with what was being discussed. This has been asked before... did you even read the information you linked to?



And here we are... right back to where we started... you're STILL spouting off comments and trying to pass them off as fact. When asked for confirmation of your statements you simply cannot provide any.



You also claimed in this post that these reports were from the government and courts. Yet again, you are 100% incorrect. The reports are from GM, a company in Germany and a body shop.



If you want to discuss fit, you really should start a new thread. That is not what we are discussing here. But if you really want to review information about the fit of CAPA parts, try reading the following from the repair industry:

http://www.collision-insight.com/news/20011227-capa.htm

http://www.collision-insight.com/news/archives/9903-feature.htm



These reports are from the repair industry, not CAPA or even from independent 3rd parties. So if anything they are bias against CAPA parts. If you care to read them they point out that 7-8 years ago there _were_ issues with _fit_. But even at that time look at the body shop reviews of the CAPA parts. About 90% of the body shops would recommend the CAPA parts (one case it was as low as 50%).



Again, this report is also very old and AM parts have improved greatly over the past 6-7 years. But even this report, from the repair industry, did not paint AM parts in such a bad light. It showed that, at the time, there were issued with AM part _fit_ but that a majority of the shops would recommend AM parts in all but a few cases.

tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:53 pm   Post subject:   

The web site you visited was chalked full of legal and court informtion not the specific articles I posted. However, it is sad that a 6 to 8 year old article is as relevant today as it was then. One just needs to change the date.



All I had to do was read as far as the name of Jack Gillis and that pretty much ended the credibility for me. If insurers had just specified oem parts instead of propping up this sham by trying to tell professionals they are just as good, consumers would have been much happier and there would be less issues of fit and quality.



You pay for a policy of insurance that promises pre loss and some acutally try for the first year to put oem back on cars, but then the next year you are specifying crapa parts, but charging the same price for coverage. Shouldn't that savings be passed on to the consumer if you are going to devalue the policy?



Quote:
CAPA has already removed more than 300 parts that did not pass the stringent VTF phase from its list of certified parts. Manufacturers may resubmit for re-certification any part removed from the program, once they have demonstrated to CAPA that previously identified problems have been corrected and the part has successfully passed a vehicle test fit.




Crapa designates parts that were once capa certified and after they sent the ill fitting parts to repairers and the installers in the field who lodged complaints, only then do they remove them from the certified list. Some insurer probably penalized that shop for extra rental days, while they were trying to get a crapa part that fit. Why don't they just call them what they are, cheap, imitation, cost mitigating, contaminated sheetmetal designed to save insurers money guised in the propoganda that they save policyholders money, all the while devaluing their property.



Next you will be trying to tell people here, that your generic lucky charms taste just as good as the real thing, Well I guess if you sugar coat them enough to fool insurance adjusters and blow smoke up their wazzoo they might be edible.


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:12 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
The web site you visited was chalked full of legal and court informtion not the specific articles I posted.
Of course the information was there... just not produced. Why would I expect any less then _claims_ of information and nothing to back it up. Nothing new here.



Quote:
Shouldn't that savings be passed on to the consumer if you are going to devalue the policy?
Who said the premium did not consider that AM parts are being used? No one. Truth is, premiums would _sky rocket_ if parts prices increased by 300% or more.



Quote:
Some insurer probably penalized that shop for extra rental days, while they were trying to get a crapa part that fit.
Not the carriers I've seen... and this has been an issue. It's one of the reasons why the carriers I've worked for don't use certain types of AM parts. But that was a long time ago. I've not heard of any problems with AM parts for a long time.

Quote:
Why don't they just call them what they are, cheap, imitation, cost mitigating, contaminated sheetmetal designed to save insurers money guised in the propoganda that they save policyholders money, all the while devaluing their property.
Because most of us live in the real world where this is simply not true.

Quote:
Next you will be trying to tell people here, that your generic lucky charms taste just as good as the real thing, Well I guess if you sugar coat them enough to fool insurance adjusters and blow smoke up their wazzoo they might be edible.
Run out of "facts" to post? Or just having a tough time backing up your claims.



I've said it before and I'll say it again... personally I don't like AM parts. But they are _legal_ and necessary in order to keep OEM parts prices down to a reasonable amount. Without AM parts _every one's_ premiums would be _far_ higher then they are now. But body shops would not really care about this, would they. You'd stop "helping" people at the point, huh.
tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 6:24 pm   Post subject:   

I will concede one point to you. It is better crap than it was 6 years ago. Being better crap doesnt make it equal to or just like the real thing, it's still cost mitigating crap.



The weight of insurers and their colleagues in the taiwan and ROC sheetmetal cartel, have simply wore most repairers down. They simply gave up. Used by a majority of shops that prostitute themselves to insurers and those rebuilders that buy it to use on those totals they purchase at auction from you, does not qualify it a quality part.



Just shows to go you what Ole Abe said, you can fool some of the people some of the time. Defending that stuff says a lot about the quality one aspires to.



You got all your scripts memorized for today? You sure have a lot of time on your hand. Does your boss know you are posting on company time or do they pay you to sell this propoganda.



Oh yeah, did you notice some of those direct repair agreements posted at the web page I sent you?



_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 8:22 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
You got all your scripts memorized for today? You sure have a lot of time on your hand. Does your boss know you are posting on company time or do they pay you to sell this propoganda.
No scripts... as I mentioned before, carrier I work for does not use AM parts. But I've seen the question raised a million times and have done my own research on the issue.



I work as a resident adjuster with my boss in another state. I get my work done and no one knows I exist. Smile



Quote:
Oh yeah, did you notice some of those direct repair agreements posted at the web page I sent you?
Nothing came my way. I would like to see them. Carrier I work for does not use DRP's but even when I worked for carriers that did, I never pushed them (a few of the larger carriers mandate that DRPs be pushed but most of the smaller carriers don't really review those stats. I think they have their place and can benefit both carrier and customer but the downfall is when carriers don't keep on top of the program. Also, I agree that the customer needs to review the repairs as well but this is true no matter where they take their vehicle.
tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:56 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
Now really T this is the last time I am coming back to this thread to expose your ineptitude.
above quote was oh, three or four posts back STILL can't even keep your word about anything huh? Rolling Eyes
Quote:
If insurers had just specified oem parts instead of propping up this sham by trying to tell professionals they are just as good, consumers would have been much happier and there would be less issues of fit and quality
One has to wonder if this were the case, just what would the 'bad' shops use as an excuse for poor repairs? You even use the word ''less'' regarding issues of fit and quality!! No doubt life would be easier if we didn't even have to 'visit' the alternative parts topic...but that's just not life...Think I remember libby and others screaming their heads off about generic drugs too when they first became popular, but the consumer was the benefactor! and guess what happened? Same thing that happend with oem parts, the price started to fall...You know if people were paying all their claims out of their own pockets, you can bet your bippy that given the choice they would go with the aftermarket...why? because it saves money! Do I EVER use non-capa certified parts? NO NEVER....how often do I have an a/m part quality problem? Maybe one out of a hundred jobs....if that!!!!
Quote:
Shouldn't that savings be passed on to the consumer if you are going to devalue the policy?
First the policy isn't ''devalued''...and second the savings IS passed on! Imagine how high premiums would be if there were no alternative parts! Or maybe someone that makes so much money writing diminished value reports doesn't worry about their insurance premiums.. Rolling Eyes
Quote:
CAPA has already removed more than 300 parts that did not pass the stringent VTF phase from its list of certified parts.
And isn't that terrific!? CAPA will not allow crap parts out! Man, did that ever benefit OUR argument...nice work Mike!







Quote:
Oh yeah, did you notice some of those direct repair agreements posted at the web page I sent you?

Nothing came my way. I would like to see them.




Please mike...post these here for ALL to enjoy!!! You've been promising to show all of the ''claims''you've made that are in them....I'll have to review, your statement of 'fact' regarding what is in all these DRP contracts...but surely your proof will show them.... Rolling Eyes


_________________

"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr.
Lori
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

Lori
Forum Expert

Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8080

Location: Missouri
287.93 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 2:46 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
CAPA has already removed more than 300 parts that did not pass the stringent VTF phase from its list of certified parts.

And isn't that terrific!? CAPA will not allow crap parts out! Man, did that ever benefit OUR argument...nice work Mike!




You just don't get it or are you just dense. These parts were once claimed to have been certified and claimed to fit. Only because some shops and techs have the gonads to inform and file complaints do these parts ever get de certified. Why should capa be praised for decertifying them when they should never have been certified in the first place.



Once they are decertified, who's job or responsibility is it to inform the vehicle owners that were told that they had certified parts installed on their car as per policy requirement, that now they have parts that are not certified and may be dangerous? Where is the tracking and liability there?



They run these parts out on the market when they think they are good and safe and hope someone doesnt complain or get hurt.



Quote:
Please mike...post these here for ALL to enjoy!!! You've been promising to show all of the ''claims''you've made that are in them....I'll have to review, your statement of 'fact' regarding what is in all these DRP contracts...but surely your proof will show them....




Some body please show Lori, how to use a link and read those agreements. They do not need to be posted and clog up space in this thread, she is doing that quite well herself.


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:09 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
These parts were once claimed to have been certified and claimed to fit. Only because some shops and techs have the gonads to inform and file complaints do these parts ever get de certified.
And the parts that auto manufactures put out are perfectly good? Right now I have a recall on my brakes as they might fail. Look at Firestone a few years ago. You think companies put out 100% perfect parts 100% of the time? Again, all auto manufactures are guilty of failed parts as well.

Quote:
Some body please show Lori, how to use a link and read those agreements. They do not need to be posted and clog up space in this thread, she is doing that quite well herself.
I must have missed it also as I never saw the link. If there is a BS person out there that knows how to link this information, please do so.
tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 3:22 pm   Post subject:   

Here is the entire archive



http://www.princetonautobody.com/archive.htm

Go to drp related documents



_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:25 am   Post subject:   

I'm reading the reports now but in the meantime Mike, why don't you see if you can help this poster:



http://www.ampminsure.org/auto/about4906.html

tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:00 pm   Post subject:   

Well I just lost a giant post....with tons of research...great...



The link you provided has ONE, count them ONE 'drp' contract which is actually (per a friend of mine I called that works for progressives drp)...their CSC not drp contract (it's their "concierge" program)...doesn't matter because this contract has NOTHING, yep NOTHING in it that you claimed was in them! no parts discounts, nothing! again, didn't read your own link...



RE: capa decertification, first where did this info come from? and second, the VTF was institued in 1999, I don't know if they have retested all prior to 99 certified parts or not I know that in 2001 they were to begin this...I also know that about 90% or more of any decertification (from what I have read) appear to be 'lot' driven...This happens with EVERYTHING material occassionally! For whatever reason when they were certified everything passed muster, then a problem popped up and when notified of the same it is handled...isn't that they way it should be?



Why don't you explain tech service bulletins to the folks Mike...why don't the big three send these to the owners? tell you why because unless and untill it is evelated to a recall they won't do a darn thing about it unless and until a vehicle owner complains, and then only if they have enough umph to find out there is a TSB on the issue and push it...miraculously it's repaired for free...why aren't you championing the poor consumer here? Can't tell you how many times I've had an owner complain about a reoccuring problem (not accident related) I'll have a friend/tech run it on alldata, bingo! tsb...they go to the dealership with the tsb number and ka-bam! it's fixed for free...where's the equity in that? Why arent' you worried about those poor folks?



I see nothing wrong with the contract you provided or with the way capa stringently tests these parts, and decertifies them if needed...also the VTF is a ''fit'' test, nothing to do with safety...



_________________

"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr.
Lori
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

Lori
Forum Expert

Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8080

Location: Missouri
287.93 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 12:32 pm   Post subject:   

Yeah, I lost a post as well (accidently clicked on a link and when I went back to this page, writing was gone. Darn).



I took a look at the Progressive contract... don't know what you wanted to point out. The following....?



"6.2 Repairs. Contractor will complete all repairs necessary to restore the vehicle to its pre-accident condition in terms of form, fit, finish, appearance, durability, functionality and safety. All such repairs shall be completed in accordance with or shall exceed industry standards then in effect. Contractor will complete all structural and/or safety related repairs in accordance with ICAR standards. Contractor will be responsible to ensure that all subcontracted repairs satisfy these standards.



Other parts of the contract state if OEM parts are specified, they need to be put on the vehicle and that the shop is not to make repairs that won't restore it to it's pre-accident condition. Damn Progressive for making their DRP's such a think!



Honestly... did you even read the links you posted? This has been asked before as... guess what... the linked information does not support what your talking about.

tcope
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

tcope
Forum Expert

Joined: 22 Nov 2006
Posts: 6175

Location: Salt Lake City, UT
375.37 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:37 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Honestly... did you even read the links you posted? This has been asked before as... guess what... the linked information does not support what your talking about.
Not only that...it proves our point!!! geeeeeeeeze .....
Quote:
Oh yeah, did you notice some of those direct repair agreements posted at the web page I sent you?
As mentioned there is ONE and it's their CSC agreement (close though I'll give him that)....although it contains NOTHING that he has maintained is in ALL OF THEM!!!!! Rolling EyesRolling Eyes


_________________

"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr.
Lori
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

Lori
Forum Expert

Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8080

Location: Missouri
287.93 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:41 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Contractor will cause Progressive Casualty Insurance Company, its parent corporation and each of their respective subsidiaries and affiliates, to be named as Additional Insureds under each policy of such insurance maintained by Contractor (except Worker's Compensation) to the full extent of the coverage limits thereof.






What this really has been interpreted to say..........

We will tell you how to fix cars and you will hold us harmless. If we specify a cheap part, a used part, inferior parts, you can not hold us liable because you have promised to hold us harmless. IF anyone is injured as a result of you fixing cars the way we specify, you the shop have promised to name us on your garagekeepers policy so that we will suffer no financial harm or responsiblity for acts you take at our direction. After all we did not force you to sign this contract.



Sad that it is this very program that is the poster child for unhappy consumers that can not monitor their repairs because they have no contact with the shop or have no clue where their vehicle is being repaired. Progressive is the pusher and the shops are the takers. And the vehicle owners suffer the harm when poor repairs have been discovered.



This is like handing your kid to the insurer and they putting out bids on who can mend their broken body and you do not see your child til the surgery is over and the insurer hands them back into your care.



No attorney would recommend that any shop owner sign these types of contracts.



This archive seems to substantiate all the assertions that I have made with regard to the insurance industry's manipulation of the collision industry. If you failed read some of the other archived articles by attorney Erica Eversmen and Richard Blumenthal attorny general of Conneticutt on insurer abuse, you really should. There is even a confidential memo in there about MIST.



http://www.princetonautobody.com/Docs/PDF/AG_DRP.pdf



http://www.princetonautobody.com/Docs/PDF/causey.pdf


_________________

If you can't find the time to do it right, how will you ever find the time to do it over.
MikeoftheOzarks
Senior member
Leave a quick message



Joined: 10 Feb 2008
Posts: 605

Location: in the missouri ozarks
193.97 Dollars($)

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:56 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
What this really has been interpreted to say..........
And you the great legal minded Mike, have interpereted it to mean this huh? hmmmmmm seriously this is all you got? What about the claims about what these contracts have in them? You provide ONE, example with NOT ONE of the things in it you claim they ALL contain!!!

Quote:
This archive seems to substantiate all the assertions that I have made with regard to the insurance industry's manipulation of the collision industry. If you failed read some of the other archived articles by attorney Erica Eversmen and Richard Blumenthal attorny general of Conneticutt on insurer abuse, you really should. There is even a confidential memo in there about MIST.


I read every single piece in the
Quote:
http://www.princetonautobody.com/archive.htm

Go to drp related documents
Like you instructed!!!!

I did not read the ''archives'' because you didn't source them there (read your own post!)....You were (once again) supplying these terrible drp contracts remember? You were going to show the world ALL THE TERRIBLE concessions shops have to give that are in the contracts....remember? And this is all you come up with! Once again, all blow (and bull) and no show...same song, (on about the ) fifteenth verse now... Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes


_________________

"Never, never be afraid to do what's right, especially if the well being of a person or animal is at stake. Society's punishments are small compared to the wounds we inflict on our soul when we look the other way." Martin Luther King Jr.
Lori
Forum Expert
Leave a quick message

Lori
Forum Expert

Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 8080

Location: Missouri
287.93 Dollars($)

All times are GMT
 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next  
Page 5 of 9


Get free auto insurance quote
State Auto Insurance Laws in USA

USA Auto Insurance laws
Ask Community Experts

flash plugin

Quick Links

Must See

Community

Hot topics in forums

Latest in blogs

AmPmInsure on Facebook



Page loaded in 0.448 seconds.