by nailbiter » Tue Mar 11, 2008 09:58 pm
The set-up:
Minnesota
2007 Toyota Tundra
purchased NEW 10/07
<4K miles
The accident:
At work I park in a 2 level parking garage run by a valet service. The valet parks my truck in the basement level. There is a steep 40' ramp that connects the two levels. On the day of the accident, the valet drove my truck up the ramp, stopped at the top of the ramp, threw it in park (he thought), jumped out, and the truck immediately started backing up towards the ramp!!! The truck was in REVERSE! The truck raced down the full length of the ramp, all the way to the bottom where it wrapped the rear end around a 3' wide concrete pillar.
The Parking Garage is taking FULL responsibility, and has turned it over to their insurance company.
Estimate:
Toyota Collision shop estimated repairs at $20,200 (replacing entire frame), and he says it came up as a total loss warning on his system. Now the Parking Garage Insurance adjuster wants to take a look for himself. I have a friend who works for Progressive who gave me a value of $30,900 using their system. 70% = $21,630
My questions:
1) I WANT this totaled. If the insurance adjuster decides not to total it, is there anything I can do?
2) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which puts me back in a BRAND NEW truck, since a similiar model with equal mileage isn't available in my area?
3) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which reimburses me for the aftermarket items (topper and bedliner) which I have reciepts for?
4) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which reimburses me for the difference between the old truck payoff, and the new truck financed (assuming its an equal truck)? Meaning, regardless of current financing rates, my payments would be the same and for the same number of remaining months.
Thanks for any advice!
NB
Minnesota
2007 Toyota Tundra
purchased NEW 10/07
<4K miles
The accident:
At work I park in a 2 level parking garage run by a valet service. The valet parks my truck in the basement level. There is a steep 40' ramp that connects the two levels. On the day of the accident, the valet drove my truck up the ramp, stopped at the top of the ramp, threw it in park (he thought), jumped out, and the truck immediately started backing up towards the ramp!!! The truck was in REVERSE! The truck raced down the full length of the ramp, all the way to the bottom where it wrapped the rear end around a 3' wide concrete pillar.
The Parking Garage is taking FULL responsibility, and has turned it over to their insurance company.
Estimate:
Toyota Collision shop estimated repairs at $20,200 (replacing entire frame), and he says it came up as a total loss warning on his system. Now the Parking Garage Insurance adjuster wants to take a look for himself. I have a friend who works for Progressive who gave me a value of $30,900 using their system. 70% = $21,630
My questions:
1) I WANT this totaled. If the insurance adjuster decides not to total it, is there anything I can do?
2) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which puts me back in a BRAND NEW truck, since a similiar model with equal mileage isn't available in my area?
3) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which reimburses me for the aftermarket items (topper and bedliner) which I have reciepts for?
4) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which reimburses me for the difference between the old truck payoff, and the new truck financed (assuming its an equal truck)? Meaning, regardless of current financing rates, my payments would be the same and for the same number of remaining months.
Thanks for any advice!
NB
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:12 pm Post Subject:
I won't mention the name of the company because it seems that some think I take delite in bashing them
Come on Mike be fair you do! Find me one post you've made that didn't bash some insurance company! :roll:"All we owe you is what you should be able to negotiate with a dealer for the price of a vehicle if there was one available." geesh give me a break.___
Well Mike what is the owner of a total loss owed, if not the cost they could buy that vehicle for? :roll: Is that not EXACTLY what you just told the OP a few paragraphs up?I would look for comparable vehicles online to verify your values and what it would take to purchase one with comparable options and features to put you in a position you had before the damage occured
geeeeeeeeeeeeze to you too! :wink: (that was a joke)Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 02:31 am Post Subject: Painting with a pretty wide brush their Lori
Notice I didn't say broad brush. I think I have been able to post alternative points of view and backed them up with resources.
If I offer advice counter to yours and from a different perspective, I am bashing? I have posted comments that fraudulent shops that steal from insurers and consumers should be prosecuted..Did you miss that one?
[quote]"
All we owe you is what you should be able to negotiate with a dealer for the price of a vehicle if there was one available." geesh give me a break.___
Well Mike what is the owner of a total loss owed, if not the cost they could buy that vehicle for? Is that not EXACTLY what you just told the OP a few paragraphs up?What an insurer owes a policy holder or third party claimant is AT LEAST the fair market value of a like, kind, and quality vehicle. A person shouldn't have to negotiate for less than fairmarket value.
The definition of Fair Market Value:
Fair Market Value (FMV) is a term in both law and accounting that is based on the economics term of "market value." It is also a common basis for assessing damages to be awarded for the loss of or damage to the property, generally in a claim under tort or a contract of insurance.
A fair market value is often an estimate of what a willing buyer would pay to a willing seller, both in a free market, for an asset or any piece of property. If such a transaction actually occurs, then the actual transaction price is usually the fair market value. Note that the opinion of people that are not interested in buying or selling an asset has little meaning, because they are not active in the market. Thus, "market value" (which is the same for everyone in the market) is not identical to the "intrinsic value" that different individuals may place on the same asset based on their own preferences and circumstances.
However, market transactions are often not observable for assets such as privately-held businesses and most personal and real property. Thus, FMV must be estimated. An estimate of Fair Market Value is usually subjective due to the circumstances of place, time, the existence of comparable precedents, and the evaluation principles of each involved person. Opinions on value are always based upon subjective interpretation of available information at the time of assessment. This is in contrast to an imposed value, in which a legal authority (law, tax regulation, court, etc.) sets an absolute value upon a product or a service.
This definition doesn't sound like it requires the buyer to negotiate for a price less than the fair market value because they should have the negotiating skill the adjuster I mentioned suggested.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 02:34 am Post Subject:
Thanks again for all your advice folks!
At what point is their Insurance Co legally able to stop providing a loaner for me? Can they stop after their first offer even if I dont accept, or are they required to provide it until we reach an agreement?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 03:16 am Post Subject: Depends
I've seen companies shut down the rental or use it to force someone to make a panic decision. I see this a lot as a negotiationg tactic.
I would say until you have negotiable funds you are entitled to a rental. If you have an insurance draft that the funds will not be placed into your account until 5 days after a deposit doesn't leave you with the ability to replace your lost vehicle til those funds are can be used.
Some of it will depend upon your lein being satisfied.
I've seen some companies cut the rental once an offer has been extended.
I've seen some companies cut the rental once you have in your possession an offer in writing detailing the entirety of the claim settlement and how your total loss was calculated.
I have seen others extend a rental for a week after the settlement.
I wouldn't take advice from the ones who owe you money, I would consult with an attorney on that one.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 03:58 am Post Subject:
It really depends on the state that you are in and if there is any statutes in place for such. I would normally pull it or tell someone I was pulling the rental with in 3 days if a total loss offer that was fair and backed by solid documentation was made and either rejected or I received no response. If an agreement was made, I usually let them keep it for a day or two after I delivered the check and obtained the release (really depended on the claimant). The only time I had problems with this is when the car that was totaled was a piece of junk and the claimant was happy driving around in a nice rental. I would just check with your DOI and start looking for a car so you are ready when the settlement is reached. If you are reasonable, most adjusters will be reasonable.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:12 am Post Subject:
I would say until you have negotiable funds you are entitled to a rental.
You would be incorrect Mike....I wouldn't take advice from the ones who owe you money, I would consult with an attorney on that one
Sure and pay the attorney two hundred bucks to tell you something you can find out for free! You could contact your states Dept of insurance comsumer line, or look on their web site, and see if the information is there...or you could ask your local body shop owner...Some of it will depend upon your lein being satisfied.
I have NEVER in twenty three years seen your lein satisfaction have anything what so ever to do with rental...they will of course get a guarantee of title release from your lein holder, and they will pay them, but nothing at all to do with the rental...Dasfuk, great contribution.
RE: fair market value...I think we are playing symatics here...when a market survey is done, what is asked when contacting dealers is what is the 'take' price...which is what is owed, what you can purchase the vehicle for...we aren't talking about a whole days worth of negotiations here...just 'hey car dealer dan, how much would you 'take' for that 07 tundra you have on your lot, that you are asking 5 ga-zillion dollars for? 29k? ok thanks...'' that's what you are owed...fyi, most of the time the ACV as it is determined using NADA or another evaluation method is higher than what you can actually purchase a like kind vehicle for...so if you get to that point of disagreement would be wise to do a market survey yourself before you insist upon one by the adjuster, more times than not these back fire, meaning the settlement is less...
If I offer advice counter to yours and from a different perspective, I am bashing?
Absolutely not, but when bash a huge company based solely on your contempt for insurance carriers I don't see how that is productive, in this case Progressive had ZERO to do with this thread! And had you read the entire thread you would've known that but you made sure you got it in here I'll give you that!At what point is their Insurance Co legally able to stop providing a loaner for me? Can they stop after their first offer even if I dont accept, or are they required to provide it until we reach an agreement?
Well yes they can in many instances...the company I work for will authorize 72 hours after an offer of settlement notice I didn't say exceptance....this is somewhat negotable in most companies (an extra day or two)...do you have rental or rental reimbursement on your own policy? Before you worry, you could check but I've never seen a state that allows a rate increase for using this coverage, and not sure what the time limit would be using your own rental if you even could to be honest...but I think it bares checking on....I know it doesn't seem fair (the 72hrs) and it's not in some cases....but there has to be a cut of or people would stay in rental forever (trust me) another thing is you aren't dealing with an auto policy here you are dealing with a garage liablity (or some type of business liablity) and they maynot have such a 'rule' or actually handle that many total loss vehicle claims (we are still only under the assumption your vehicle is totaled)....Thanks again for all your advice folks!
Nailbiter you are welcome, please do continue to keep us updated, and let us know if we can be of any further assistance to you....Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 03:32 pm Post Subject:
An insurance adjuster's job is not to be fair to you, their job is to settle your loss on their terms based on the criteria that their company maintains is fair from their perspective.
...and body shops are there just to over charge their customers, make repairs that are not needed, charge for repairs not done, and not stand behind the work the do.As in the past, you LOVE to group all carriers _and_ all adjusters into one large pen.
I have posted comments that fraudulent shops that steal from insurers and consumers should be prosecuted..Did you miss that one?
Miss that one? Yeah, it must have got drowned out. But the two don't have anything to do with each other. Your not posting "counter" comments, you make many statements that are so broad and far reaching, they usually don't apply to specific situations. But you are certainly well informed.Example:
I would say until you have negotiable funds you are entitled to a rental. If you have an insurance draft that the funds will not be placed into your account until 5 days after a deposit doesn't leave you with the ability to replace your lost vehicle til those funds are can be used.
Nope... see below and read up on the case law.
I've seen companies shut down the rental or use it to force someone to make a panic decision. I see this a lot as a negotiationg tactic.
First and foremost, the _law_ states once the offer is made, the other party no longer owes loss of use. But how long should the at fault party pay for a rental... until the other party feels like agreeing to the amount? I've never heard of a company that actual stops the rental on the same day they make the offer (which is legal). Personally, I let them know I can only pay for 3 or 4 more days and I try to work a weekend in if possible. I also ask if this would be okay. I've always worked with the person as long as they are working with me. Almost always, the person knows their vehicle is a total loss _well_ before any offer is made. Once they know their vehicle is a total loss, they should be investigating their options. It's not the adjusters responsiblity to hold their hand and tell them they should look into buying grandmas car or visting their local dealership. The adjuster cannot know everyone's situation as they are all different. BTW- I have a claim now where I was going to repair someone's car as the value was $16k. He wanted it totaled, works at a dealership, and told me it was only worth $12k. So now I have someone telling me that I'm considering too much on the value. You won't read about that one on the Internet.But I can't tell you the number of times I've made an offer, had the person tell me it was too low and when I ask them what their vehicle is worth, they don't even know! I'm suppose to just keep paying for a rental until they feel like starting to address the situation? Mike, most carriers set up direct bills on rentals... they don't even have to do that! They could just make a payment after the fact but where would that leave most people who don't have $500 laying around? Carriers could also require a property damage release be signed before they make _any_ payments. Is this done all the time? Nope... as Lori mentioned in another thread, it's almost never done (which is why we can simply pay supplements). It would just make everything more difficult on the claimant. Instead, open ended checks are issued and the carrier assumes responsiblity for anything that goes wrong.
I wouldn't take advice from the ones who owe you money, I would consult with an attorney on that one.
I'd don't know if I'd take advice from someone is not going to paying that attorney's fee or someone who thinks that they understand liability laws and the Fair Claims Practice laws in most states. If I told someone to hire an attorney because all body shops don't know how to repair cars, I'd ignore that also.I don't take offense to the information... I take offense to the wrong information.
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 04:32 pm Post Subject: Glitch?
Something weird...
My screen shows Tcope as the last poster to my thread, and it shows that there are 3 pages, but when I click on page 3 it errors with "No posts exist for this topic"?
The last post I see is Lori's on page 2.
Anyone know why this might be, am I missing something?
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 05:20 pm Post Subject:
when I click on page 3 it errors with "No posts exist for this topic"?
That happens a lot, you're not missing anything. I think it's just a glitch on the forum software.Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 06:14 pm Post Subject:
If I cant come to a reasonable agreement (payoff loan balance, and reimburse me for NEW topper & liner) with the Insurance Co, can I take it to arbitration?
I read somewhere you could only do this with your own Co, not the at-fault partys Co.
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