by nailbiter » Tue Mar 11, 2008 09:58 pm
The set-up:
Minnesota
2007 Toyota Tundra
purchased NEW 10/07
<4K miles
The accident:
At work I park in a 2 level parking garage run by a valet service. The valet parks my truck in the basement level. There is a steep 40' ramp that connects the two levels. On the day of the accident, the valet drove my truck up the ramp, stopped at the top of the ramp, threw it in park (he thought), jumped out, and the truck immediately started backing up towards the ramp!!! The truck was in REVERSE! The truck raced down the full length of the ramp, all the way to the bottom where it wrapped the rear end around a 3' wide concrete pillar.
The Parking Garage is taking FULL responsibility, and has turned it over to their insurance company.
Estimate:
Toyota Collision shop estimated repairs at $20,200 (replacing entire frame), and he says it came up as a total loss warning on his system. Now the Parking Garage Insurance adjuster wants to take a look for himself. I have a friend who works for Progressive who gave me a value of $30,900 using their system. 70% = $21,630
My questions:
1) I WANT this totaled. If the insurance adjuster decides not to total it, is there anything I can do?
2) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which puts me back in a BRAND NEW truck, since a similiar model with equal mileage isn't available in my area?
3) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which reimburses me for the aftermarket items (topper and bedliner) which I have reciepts for?
4) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which reimburses me for the difference between the old truck payoff, and the new truck financed (assuming its an equal truck)? Meaning, regardless of current financing rates, my payments would be the same and for the same number of remaining months.
Thanks for any advice!
NB
Minnesota
2007 Toyota Tundra
purchased NEW 10/07
<4K miles
The accident:
At work I park in a 2 level parking garage run by a valet service. The valet parks my truck in the basement level. There is a steep 40' ramp that connects the two levels. On the day of the accident, the valet drove my truck up the ramp, stopped at the top of the ramp, threw it in park (he thought), jumped out, and the truck immediately started backing up towards the ramp!!! The truck was in REVERSE! The truck raced down the full length of the ramp, all the way to the bottom where it wrapped the rear end around a 3' wide concrete pillar.
The Parking Garage is taking FULL responsibility, and has turned it over to their insurance company.
Estimate:
Toyota Collision shop estimated repairs at $20,200 (replacing entire frame), and he says it came up as a total loss warning on his system. Now the Parking Garage Insurance adjuster wants to take a look for himself. I have a friend who works for Progressive who gave me a value of $30,900 using their system. 70% = $21,630
My questions:
1) I WANT this totaled. If the insurance adjuster decides not to total it, is there anything I can do?
2) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which puts me back in a BRAND NEW truck, since a similiar model with equal mileage isn't available in my area?
3) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which reimburses me for the aftermarket items (topper and bedliner) which I have reciepts for?
4) If it is totaled, am I legally entitled to a settlement which reimburses me for the difference between the old truck payoff, and the new truck financed (assuming its an equal truck)? Meaning, regardless of current financing rates, my payments would be the same and for the same number of remaining months.
Thanks for any advice!
NB
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 04:00 am Post Subject:
You are correct, arbitration is via the insured's contract not a 3rd party (I've never seen it done either.... it's not inexpensive). You could go through arbitration if the carrier agreed. I can't imagine why they would.
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 11:47 am Post Subject:
I was going to repair someone's car as the value was $16k. He wanted it totaled, works at a dealership, and told me it was only worth $12k. So now I have someone telling me that I'm considering too much on the value. You won't read about that one on the Internet.
Have had a few of those claims myself tcope, damned if you damned if you don't ...I've also had claims where I totaled a vehicle and the owner said, 'i just bought this for 3k', and evaluation came in at 5k....did I 'work some magic' and pay them 3k ? Hell NO....what was their loss? 3k! another one you won't read...I forgot to take exception to this!
An insurance adjuster's job is not to be fair to you
WRONG AGAIN MIKE...I would challenge you to find one claim in TWENTY-THREE FREAKIN' YEARS that I have not been 'fair' with an insured or CLAIMANT...I do my best to live my life by the golden rule, and treat everyone the way I would also want to be treated....MY JOB IS TO BE FAIR TO EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!AND I AM !!! and so is every adjuster that is worth their salt.....
Maybe instead of arb...(if they'd go for it or if not private and you have to share the cost)...do a market search yourself with local new/used car dealers call and ask to talk with the used car manager (sorry as we've discussed your truck is used)...ask if they can spare you five minutes or so (probably will if they understand you are going to be car shopping soon)...and discribe your vehicle in detail and ask them if on their lot what would they 'take' for that vehicle...just to double check yourself and the carriers ACV...please do keep us informed...
Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 06:19 pm Post Subject: No need to get your hackles in an uproar.
I forgot to take exception to this! Quote:
An insurance adjuster's job is not to be fair to you
WRONG AGAIN MIKE...I would challenge you to find one claim in TWENTY-THREE FREAKIN' YEARS that I have not been 'fair' with an insured or CLAIMANT...I do my best to live my life by the golden rule, and treat everyone the way I would also want to be treated....MY JOB IS TO BE FAIR TO EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND I AM !!! and so is every adjuster that is worth their salt.....
This was not to imply that you are not fair in your dealings or settlements, life isn't fair, and people aren't promised or guaranteed fair. They are owed what a policy promises or what damages amount to in case of a third party regardless of what either party considers fair.
As an example only and not pertaining to the above claim.
Is it fair that a single mother of three had a vehicle she purchased for 2000 that was only worth 1500 and your insured totaled it two days after she purchased it? Maybe she paid more than it was worth, maybe she gave more for it, because she knew the vehicle history, or it had a sentimental attachment, it doesn't matter because she gave more than the fair market value for it. She had an investment of 2000 but you only offered 1500 and she can't replace it now for less than 2500 with anything comparable? What's fair about that? Now she will be out another 1000 dollars because of another person's negligence..Is that fair? No but it's what the law or what the policy they purchased promises.
Feel better now? I wasn't attacking your fairness or saying you ever cheated anyone on a claim. I honestly think you are most likely better than fair from what I said in an earlier post. But then I see few others here offering advice with your compassion. You could be spending your time doing a lot funner things. But you obviously feel the same need I do to help people. We are just on different sides of the issue many times.
If I bash a certain company, I don't harbor anger against the people that are being paid to do their job. I harbor anger and frustration at claim handling techniques their bean counters mandate or implement to underpay some claims with intent from my perspective. Some of these techniques did not exist before this company became so big so fast. You give this kind of power to kids out of college with no experience in tact or people skills but do give them highly effective negotiating skills to take advantage of claims settlements and give them bonuses for those skills, then that's just wrong. What's really bad is that they leave this company with those habits and skills and infect companies that use to neve use those tactics.
You should have to deal with some of these snits who are drunk with presumed authority when they come in your office and sit on the corner of your desk and tell you we don't pay for a procedure or material when they did two weeks earlier. When you ask them to leave the premise because they become unprofessional and attempt to intimidate you by telling you "we have a whole stable of attorneys to handle guys like you" it doesn't make you look forward to attempting to communicate with them in the future.
I've read a lot of books on negotiating skills where it is supposed to be a winwin situation a give and take, but some of these guys only read the negotiating tactics that favor their position or they attempt to intimidate by using tactics of having to go to a higher authority.
You and I could probably write a book on the ploys used by both shops and insurers. I don't like shops that cheat and do sloppy repairs, and I don't like being judged against them no more than you like being judged by all claims handling practices of all companies. If you feel I lumped you in with all the rest, I apologize for that implication.
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 02:02 pm Post Subject:
This was not to imply that you are not fair in your dealings or settlements,
Sure is what it sounded like Mike....I chose to take you at your word that you didn't mean it that way...so onward.....Feel better now?
a little...I wasn't attacking your fairness or saying you ever cheated anyone on a claim. I honestly think you are most likely better than fair from what I said in an earlier post. But then I see few others here offering advice with your compassion.
I think that all the regular posters here have the same compassion and genuine empathy and willingness to spend their limited free time trying to educate and help our visitors...really I do, there are only a few adjusters and all of them feel the (some times) burden of correcting mis-information (not picking on or even talking about you...you'd be surprised some of the 'mis' information), and trying hard to help/educate an OP with a problem. We are quick to jump on an unethical carrier, just look at how many times we tell them to file complaints, call this person or that, tell this this is not correct and bordering on unfair claims practicies..You could be spending your time doing a lot funner things. But you obviously feel the same need I do to help people.
Agreed...We are just on different sides of the issue many times.
yes, but I will say this Mike....that I have no 'agenda', meaning it doesn't affect my pay one way or the other, (posting on this site) where you do have something to gain by bashing ins companies/adjusters...and (appearing) to promote ill will, not only between the carriers and shops but more distructive the vehicle owners and their carrier as well as thrid party...You portray adjusters (for the most part) as ignorant beings just walking around doing the bidding of the big bad ins companies, as mere puppets..the link you sent on one thread even (continueously called us ins..wh--res)...I know that sounds harsh, and I don't mean to offend you (really I don't, I just don't know how to get this across without speaking frankly)...It seems to me that you go out of your way to attempt to 'educate' the general public that ins. adjusters know absolutely nothing about collision repair, and are basically just out to get them...but the body shop, now they are the only ones that know the 'real deal' and not only how to settle your physical damage claim, but also diminished value, and might even be able to assist you (by telling you not to cooperate) with your injury as well....all drp's are bad...and out to hack your vehicle back together, there are no 'good' drp's or drp shops...in doing so the agenda I mentioned comes off as an attempt to turn everyone against not only all insurance companies and adjusters but any shop that has a drp program, and coming running to you for comfort, because you are the ONLY one that really gives a crap...and by doing so your agenda is complete with more work, which equals (of course) more money....Now that being said let me say that I do believe that you have the heart to truly help consumers know what their rights are regarding their vehicle repair and that your motivation is that regard is dead on..and I couldn't agree more...it's just when it gets generalized and personal that I take umbrage...Why does it have to (seem to ) be so advisarial with you? Why can't you and any insurance carriers/adjusters get along? And have a decent/professional working relationship? Is there never any room for compromise on either part? Life is full of compromise Mike, you know that, and before you go there no I'm not talking about compromising the quality/safety of a repair...or paying less than a claim is truly worth.
Maybe down there in south MO they are all hard to get along with adjusters, but I have trouble believing that....I'm trying really hard to understand what you are wanting to gain (other than what I've said)...I agree certainly that all owners have the right to have their vehicle fixed wherever they wish and are owed to be returned to pre-loss condition....we are in full agreement on that....I agree further (forgot to look this up for you I will here in a minute) if an agent is bashing you or your shop without just cause, there should be some recourse on your part...I also agree there are adjusters that need more training...again that is something you could do rather than just call them an idiot...When I was a shop manager I had three different companies send me three different new adjusters to 'hang' out in the shop for several weeks learning more about the repair industry....I could've said no, (six other shops did)...but why? How would that help anything...by doing so I helped ''build'' an adjuster that had a better understanding of what it takes to fix a car...when I'd get an estimate that was short..I'd call the adjuster ask if they could come back to the shop and go over what they missed, show them the p pages that showed this was not an included operation therefore they needed to add for it....see things like that 'help' both parties (shop and adjuster/company) rather than perpetuate adversity....I also agree with you one million percent that the desk reviews of estimates and a shop receiving a call from someone looking at two deminsional photos that asks me to repair a 1/4 for 4 hours rather than the 7 I wrote is nuts! And should not be allowed (with the exception of the bonehead mistakes we all make sometimes, like meaning to write one hour on a hood and accidently writing ten! :roll: ) There are many things on the insurance/adjuster side that need to be corrected as well, I have no qualms about that, and agree there is plenty to correct there....I just can't see what you are hoping to accomplish....we HAVE to work together in some way...that is not debatable, and that is not going to change EVER...and we both know that...all I'm asking for is some help....in trying to make things better rather than worse....man I really do wish I worked in your area, and we could get together and discuss some ways to make things better for both 'sides'....who knows maybe I'll have to work a storm in that area, if so I promise to look you up...I'd love to see your shop, and how it operates, and who knows...maybe we could learn a little something from each other!
she gave more than the fair market value for it.
She had an investment of 2000 but you only offered 1500 and she can't replace it now for less than 2500 with anything comparable?
Wait Mike this isn't right...If the fair market value what she can buy a lkq vehicle for is 2500 which is easily proven with a market search, then that is what she is both owed and paid...all she has to do (as you know) is prove her value....a market survey is the quickest way I know to do that...But I'll play the game...and offer this (sad but too often true) scenerio...Bad credit Brad, bought a car at a 'we tote the note' lot, this car was over priced by 1500 (typcial in my area) further his interest rate is about 25%....so Brad totals his vehicle who's value is 2000, however Brad still owes 3200.00 on his vehicle...so he is out a total of 3200-3500, I'm only paying 2k...We've done a market search and Brad has to agree that the fair market price for his vehicle is 2k, and we can buy them all day long for that...While it sucks...no question...why would an ins carrier (or private pay for that matter) owe Brad over the 2k? Is it the at fault parties fault that Brad got himself into such a position? Course not...and I bring it back to it coming directly from your pocket...not an ins company what would you pay Brad? 2k I'm betting....fyi, in these cases for local lots in my area I have gone way above and beyond in both 1st and 3rd party claims and have been successfull the majority of the time in getting these lots to 'right off' the balance of the debt, (accepting what I pay and marking it paid in full for Brad)...really without much difficulty at all.....give them bonuses for those skills, then that's just wrong.
That is wrong and I'd like to know of ANY company that give ANY adjuster or claims person a bonus forto take advantage of claims settlements
I assume you mean the lower the settlement or repair some how someone is getting a bonus for that? no way Mike sorry, they cannot give an adjuster a bonus for settling a claim for 'less than' it should've been settled, I can't imagine that is what you are saying, so please explain that a little better....those habits and skills and infect companies that use to neve use those tactics.
Not arguing here, just what habits/skills are you talking about? I'm not following... :oops:You should have to deal with some of these snits who are drunk with presumed authority when they come in your office and sit on the corner of your desk
Been there, (remember I did work in a shop)...and agree there are some punk adjusters that think they are some kind of king of the world...without a clue about what they are talking about..and I openly blame the training facilities in some companies who actually promote this type of behavior...I've seen it first had.....and yes, I have had to ask some to leave, and NOT COME BACK....and tell you we don't pay for a procedure or material when they did two weeks earlier.
In most cases a change like this would have to come from a much higher level...and that is exactly where I would go, (and have)...if an adjuster plopped on my desk and denied something that their company had previously been paying I would want it from a higher up, along with the reasoning behind it...period....When you ask them to leave the premise because they become unprofessional and attempt to intimidate you by telling you "we have a whole stable of attorneys to handle guys like you" it doesn't make you look forward to attempting to communicate with them in the future.
Of course it doesn't and (again) I've been there....my general response was, 'and that's why the built court houses, see ya' there big fella'....then I promptly before they even got off the lot contacted their superior...which in most cases resulted in an apology from the supervisor as well as that company REQUIRING that adjuster come back (if I'd allow it) and apologize in person...I've read a lot of books on negotiating skills where it is supposed to be a winwin situation a give and take, but some of these guys only read the negotiating tactics that favor their position or they attempt to intimidate by using tactics of having to go to a higher authority.
Me too (read the books) and I try hard when I have to negoiate to make it a win/win, you are correct there are adjusters that are 'my way or the highway' and this is wrong wrong wrong...to be fair on this parthaving to go to a higher authority
This is true in many instances, the adjuster 'on the ground' cannot for example make a rate increase (across the board in most cases) or bump up the p&m on a certain job without an ok...as a matter of fact, on my own, I've asked my shops to dig up estimates from other carriers and have presented them to my boss in an attempt to get a rate increase....which I think we owe...I've fought for over a year (and my boss has too) to try and get the P&M raised, because I know my shops are getting screwed on that alot....some things though (as I said) the adjuster does not have the authority to change on their own...I don't see though by saying that.....(going to a higer authority). as intimidating :? ...You and I could probably write a book on the ploys used by both shops and insurers.
No Kidding...and the body shops would buy it for your part, and maybe the adjusters for mine? ha ha...maybe we should just do that Mike :wink: :lol:I don't like shops that cheat and do sloppy repairs, and I don't like being judged against them no more than you like being judged by all claims handling practices of all companies. If you feel I lumped you in with all the rest, I apologize for that implication.
Thanks Mike that really means a lot to me...truly...I think that you (as I've said before) are more than likely an A number one shop and owner....and have your heart in the right place....I just question (some) your tactics, of achieving your goal...which is exactly what by the way? We have to agree that your industry just like mine has to have someone policing them...It would be just fine to let your shop write their own ticket, but you and I know (sadly) greed gets in the way of many others...so that will never work....so what is the solution? How do we together 'fix' this?Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 06:57 pm Post Subject:
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 07:09 pm Post Subject: Maybe it is time to close this thread and move on.
I opened my business in 1982 with no intentions of ever getting bigger than I presently am. I did not plan for expansion and envision any potential for growth. All I ever wanted to do was to perform quality repairs for my customers without interference and to be commensurated fairly and adequately for my services. I consider my work to be a craft that is highly skilled and underpaid. My reward was recognition for the quality of work and appreciation from my customers.
I never sought to be any insurer's partner; I was actually naive enough to think that if there was a shop that excelled in quality so that agents would never have to deal with unhappy policyholder, they would come. The agents came alright; they came with their hands held behind their back with open palms wanting special favors in exchange for referring their customers to me. When I refused, they went to someone that would play that game.
When the agents could no longer come with hands held out, it became the insurance industry themselves. They said; let's form partnerships to those shops they felt could handle volume and quality. They never said come one and come all let's be partners. Those that refused built their business on truly marketing themselves to consumers because we recognized or were suspicious of past relationships with the insurance industry. Those that forged those partnerships in some cases today are regretting their decisions. Those shops that wanted all the work for theirselves, in my opinion, sold our industry to another forever to dance to their tune.
In the eighties, one insurer who is now one of the largest in the country, use to keep small fringe shops busy by using the tactic in negotiating where they claimed, my shop can do this job for x dollars and that's all I am willing to pay you. Those shops seldom had frame equipment and painted in sheds and they repaired everything. Seldom were parts replaced and when they were, it was with used rusty old junk. This company and I were having a love fest with each other back then and when I called their bluff and invited to my shop to educate them on a frame repair and quality work, they rebuffed, we'll pay you this one time but never again. The very next day, this same adjuster called and asked me to be their appraiser in my location. I replied no thanks, I need quality sleep. He asked what I meant by that, to which I responded, “I can't sleep at night knowing I may have intentionally failed to pay someone what they were owed on a claim and cheat them”. He laughed and said Oh you'll get use to that. I never wanted to then, and I wouldn't want to now.
This is not a blanket statement on all adjusters, it bothers me that there may only be one company that still operates like this and people like him that still work for insurers. My long-term plan was to eventually work for an insurer. When I started in the early seventies, most insurers hired former body shop industry people to give them credibility on making calls on repairs. Over the years they began hiring less and less experienced people and trained only four year college graduates to mold them into what they desired. We (shop owners) always believed that insurers felt ex collision industry employees would give away the farm but it was usually just the opposite. But none the less, over the years if you had collision experience, no insurer wanted to talk to you about employment. Working for the insurance industry wasn't a dream; it was a future option which most likely doesn't exist today.
I have a lot of friends and acquaintances in the insurance industry that I respect and know they walk a fine line between paying my sheets and reconciling their figures for their management. I only have a few companies that I can't find some mutual agreement with and simply tell consumers in advance, that perhaps they might want to work with their insurer to select a shop that can work with the insurer estimate. Most of the time when the consumer realizes that it is they who are owed payment for indemnification and not the shop, they can effect change in the insurers behavior. Other times that job is kicked to the curb.
Maybe I am guilty of bashing to a degree. I still feel that my industry should function on free enterprise and should have zero affiliation with insurers. I feel the collision industry should be an advocate for consumers for which they contract. Insurers should indemnify and investigate claims but not determine methodology and scope of repairs for vehicles that they themselves do not perform repairs nor are liable for.
Lori, and others, I have enjoyed the lively discussion and I will even admit I learned a thing or two. But it is time for me to move on; I can't believe the time I have spent in here in such a short time. I have way too many diminished value claims to works on that aren't getting my full attention! :lol: I hope you weren't really wishing a storm on the Ozarks. You should visit the area when it isn't in turmoil. If you ever get to Joplin, I am not hard to find. Just ask where you find new fender Mike.
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:20 pm Post Subject:
Update:
I called the Collision shop estimater on Friday. He said the Parking Garages adjuster stopped in on Thursday. Apparently the adjuster works for numerous Insurance Co's and according to the collision shop estimater, he "is a good guy".
The adjuster didnt argue any of the repairs, and told the estimater he was sure his numbers would be close to the same.
So....
What should I expect now? If they agree its totaled, will I get a phone call with an offer, will I get a letter with an offer, or something completely different?
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:32 am Post Subject:
Mike,
Wonderful post..very eleoquent and I agree with 99.9999% of everything you said. You made some wonderful points, in a most positive manner, you should look into being some type of orator Mike! I'm serious! Or spokesmen for your industry (perhaps you already are?)...
I for one will miss your (well some of it :roll: ) imput, and welcome you any time...You have been a great asset and a credit to you industry, (sorry but so many times, alot of shop owners/tech just can't keep it clean enough for this board)...you have gotten your points across without becoming too personal.
Our daughter went to (and grad. from) SMSU so I used to get to the area alot, (hang a left at Joplin)...not so much now...But if I ever do get to Joplin (just alittle over 200 miles straight south of me)...I look forward to looking you up...truly..
I hope you weren't really wishing a storm on the Ozarks.
NEVER would I wish a storm anywhere are you kidding? :shock:
couple of things...you have some money coming...looks like $40.04, you will need to pm lakemen and request payment if you want it...Also I would like to offer you, if you think at any time that I could assist you in anything regarding a particular event with an insurance company/adjuster or would like an adjusters (unbiased) view on a situation, please please please feel free to pm me (no else sees those)...Not that I know it all clearly the contrary, but I might just be an untapped resourse for you to get some information from.....
thanks again Mike it's been a pleasure....I wish you only the best...
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:38 am Post Subject:
Nailbiter...
Apparently the adjuster works for numerous Insurance Co's and according to the collision shop estimater, he "is a good guy".
That just means he is an independent adjuster...great that the shop says he's a good guy....The adjuster didnt argue any of the repairs, and told the estimater he was sure his numbers would be close to the same.
meaning that it is totaled? Didn't the shop say it was a total?So....
The independent will likely get all his information to the company adjuster who will contact you...the independent may, but he will certainly call the hiring adjuster...If I were you I'd get the independent adjusters number from the shop and just give him a call...ask him what the next step will be....he should be more than happy to discuss this with you...companys are different some will have the independent go ahead and settle the total others will just have him get all the information necessary so the hiring company adjuster can settle it...No harm at all in your calling him and asking what their process is...What should I expect now? If they agree its totaled, will I get a phone call with an offer, will I get a letter with an offer, or something completely different?
How long has it been since your truck was wrecked?
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 01:02 pm Post Subject:
meaning that it is totaled? Didn't the shop say it was a total?
I think the adjuster agrees with the amount of physical damage, but I dont think that necessarily means his dollar amount will match the shops estimate exactly? I'm not sure.
How long has it been since your truck was wrecked?
March 5th
If I dont hear from the Insurance Co or adjuster today, I'll make some calls tomorrow.
Thanks again for the help!!
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