by AutoBody by Jake » Thu Jan 17, 2008 02:36 pm
Thought it best to start a new topic. Maybe there's people out there that have questions about DRP's and the shops that become one.
I've got quite a bit of experience with the direct repair program process and it's ups and downs, yes. There's a fair bit that goes on behind the scenes, and that's where I see some headaches.
Do you have any experience with them where you are? What do you think of them?
I've got quite a bit of experience with the direct repair program process and it's ups and downs, yes. There's a fair bit that goes on behind the scenes, and that's where I see some headaches.
Do you have any experience with them where you are? What do you think of them?
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 03:25 am Post Subject:
Lori, When I mentioned the bird droppings etching the finish, I didn't mean while a vehicl was being painted, I meant after the finish has cured. Darker colors are more susceptable to this (I think because they get so much hotter). I'm not talking about "discount brand" finishes either - I've seen it happen to R-M, DuPont, Sikkens and PPG - all modern urethane finishes, not old enamels.
tcope mentioned something about a coalition to "police" the repair industry ... beliee me, they are out there. "Shop Cops", more commonly known as post repair inspectors, routinely discover fraud committed by shops against insurers and consumers alike.
Of course, these same inspectors are the same people that report that generally, the shops doing the worst repairs, and the shops with the highest frequency of problems in the repairs, are most often DRP shops.
Again I am not a shop owner, but I have always been amazed at the disparity between the labor rates of a body shop vs a mechanical shop.
The body shop tech has the same hand tools, and more (da's, airboards, grinders, paint guns, etc.). Both facilities hav air conditioning equipment, and many of the better-equipped body shops have alignment machines. They also have a $40,000 frame machine and an $80,000 bake booth (which is extremely expensive to heat). Most mechanical shops don't have a welder, while many body shops have two or three.
Both types of service have training, but aside from manufacturer training in dealerships, the mechanical side has little other training (ASE is testing, not training). On the body shop side however, aside from OE training, there is I-CAR, with several dozen courses.
Another difference between the two services is that aside from diagnosing problems, the mechanical side is basically nothing more than changing parts. The body shop side needs a certain level of "talent" to be able to repair a quarter panel (not replace, but straighten).
Health hazards in the collision repair industry outnumber those in the mechanical repair industry. Go to any service department and look at the age of the techinicians working and then compare that to what you see in the body shop. You can often find 50 year old mechanics, but it's fairly rare to see a 50 year old body man still going at it.
With all of this, how is it possible that the labor rate in the body shop is only half of what the mechanical repair industry charges, even though the body shop has almost double the investment across the board ?
Lori, as far as warranties, I am speaking about the panel that was replaced not having a transferrable warranty. I don't know what kind of a vehicle you're driving, but if the manufacturer's warranty isn't transferrable, it might have been built in Taiwan (along with those imitation parts ... LOL - c'mon - that was a joke). Seriously though, I have never seen a manufacturers warranty that didn't transfer.
Regarding the aftermarket parts warranties offered by insurers, I agree - they COULD be beneficial if the consumer was going to keep the vehicle, but not many people these days buy an automobile with the intention of "driving it into the ground".
I (sort of) understand protecting the leinholder, but I still don't understand why payment would be sent to a shop ... well, I understand it's a matter of convenience, but I don't understand why anyone would tie a repairer into the benefits that are payable to the contract holder.
If the lessee defaults on the loan, it's nobody's business - not the shop, nor the insurer - that's between the lender and borrower. If the laws state that the insurer must include either the repair facility or the leinholder on the check for coverage, (if I had a shop), I would insist that it's not co-payable to me. If for no other reason than to distance myself from any perception of any wrongdoing by the vehicle owner.
In other words, I will bill the vehicle owner for the work that I did, if they violate some other contract, it would have nothing to do with me.
(and no, you would not get my tax number unless I was fixing one of your fleet vehicles ... but since my rates would reflect the quality of my service, my investments and my desired profit, you wouldn't be hiring me to do the work because you wouldn't want to pay my price)
Lori ... let's not be too silly here - a 7 year old car requiring replacement or refinishing of a bumper cover would either a) sustain no diminishment; or b) sustain such a minimal amount of diminishment that it wouldn't be worth pursuing.
However, take a $170,000 Mercedes-Benz C55 and do $40,000 worth of damage, and you're talking about a substantial loss of value.
Take a two year old Nissan Altima, replace a bumper, bar, quarter, rear body panel and straighten the trunk floor for maybe $6k and you again have a diminishment of value.
Just my nickels worth.
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:18 pm Post Subject:
You operate in a very closed minded environment, you only know what your supervisors and trade journal authors want you to know. You do not operate a shop and you have no idea of what it takes financially to run a shop
Sorry wrong, wrong and wrong again, I was also the facility manager for the largest body shop in the town I live in for several years. I'm in the unique position to understand both sides of the fence, having worked both sides...So another uninformed statement on your part Mike, not mine.Shop owners are not even allowed to charge a surcharge for fuel prices for heating and electricity, but your average garbage truck business can add such a charge monthly. We're told that's overhead, just absorb it into your cost of business
The garbage trucks (not in my area but I know what you mean) are charging a 'fuel' sur charge Mike...This is ridiculous, when I buy a gallon of milk at the store, I don't pay a sur charge for there light bill either, it's built into the cost of the item as the cost of doing business. I swear you are bound and determined to price yourself right out of buisness. You have the right to do so, but will only get away with it and stay a float if you are the only game in town, too many of your competitiors are more than happy to charge a reasonable charge for their service. I suppose NONE of them can properly repair a vehicle either. We know this isn't correct that yours is not the only shop that is capable of quality work. Again, this is a problem in your own industry, not the insurance one.Need we even mention Allstate again and threatening to pull their good hands out of Florida, and how most major insurers treated policy holders in the gulf region. A lot of major insurers have an image problem with people as well as some shoddy body shop businesses. But that's okay, insurers can aborb that cost and run to the DOI for an increase in rates.
There you go jumping all over again, you and I both know that the Allstate thing and gulf region is a homeowners problem. "Show me" fellow Missourian where it says anything about them pulling the auto line. Could be but I've not heard it.Lori, two business trade magazines you probably have never turned one page on have been reporting on the dwindling profits of shops and the demize of the promised beneficial relationship of drps and insurers have turned sour.
Wrong again Mike as a matter of fact I have three subscription, you really don't want to align yourself with 'some' of them and their tactics do you? To be fair though you don't say which ones, there are some fantastic trade publications. There also are some rags. Not all drps have problems that's the other point I'm trying to get across to you. Because you have no drp's nor can get along with any companies/adjusters doesn't mean that is the majority nor the norm.Every person who owns a vehicle should research and find a body shop that does good work and has a good reputation. Just like people have their favorite stores. They should have a shop they like and use that shop every time they need work done.
I could not agree with you more....I 100% agree that all owners have the choice, and should make an informed one, whether a drp or not...makes zero difference to me, I think they need to have some confidence in the shop they leave their vehicle with....But you seem to be saying fischer that no DRP's are good shops, is that realllllllllllly your stance?So your saying that shops have no right or reason to charge 65.00? Please explain
. No I'm not what I'm saying is a 50% increase is crazy, and will never happen..Progressive used to raise my rates for no reason at all, but thats ok?
What's wrong with that? ARe you complaining about that too? They raised them because they did a survey that showed a rate increase was warranted I really don't get your points there....Maybe you should go back to managing a shop and see how far that 45.00 a hour goes when your painting panels for 1 hour because of "blend within",
No thanks, I've done them both and I know which one is easier! :wink: keeping track of one set of rules is way easier than 12! Not to mention parts.... :roll:and setting up and measuring for 2.5 on a machine that you just paid $60,000 for
Now see here's where you go way off track....just because that genisus machine cost you 60k that means it takes you more than two and half hours to tie it down and set/hang the targets? No it doesn't and you know it, any decent tech can get a moveable car fully set up in under an hour and half, and you know that's the truth, most in 45 minutes!...so following your logic until the machine is paid off you should get what 1k per set up? Then again following your logic it should be free once it's paid for then right? That seriously makes zero sense.45.00 a hour goes when your painting panels for 1 hour because of "blend within
I'll side with you on this kind of, you are talking about the wrong rate though mostly....the time is fine, (if true partial is warranty see below) it's the paint and material rate that is all screwed up and screwed up bad...I agree with you 100% on that.....blend within, or partial refinish is a huge problem, and again I agree stupid unless for example a fender just kisses the front edge of a door, then ok, (with the labor time NOT the p&m) other than that I'm on your side about that one! (how about that?)Lori, When I mentioned the bird droppings etching the finish, I didn't mean while a vehicl was being painted, I meant after the finish has cured. Darker colors are more susceptable to this (I think because they get so much hotter). I'm not talking about "discount brand" finishes either - I've seen it happen to R-M, DuPont, Sikkens and PPG - all modern urethane finishes, not old enamels.
I knew exactly what you meant again this shouldn't happen ever and each of the paint suppliers you mention (except I'm not familar with this 'R-M") warrant their paint, dupont for life....This is a quality issue and NOT something that should happen...Now having said that if an owner leaves bird droppings on ANY paint including factory paint for ever you're gonna have a problem, but they way you put it didn't sound like that....(owner neglect)....Both facilities hav air conditioning equipment,
???????? Not where I'm from Alex, I've probably been in hundreds of shops within a 200 mile sweep of my home and know two that's ''2'' that have air conditioning....although I don't get your point about that... :? I do agree with you that the mechanical and body rates are farther apart than they probably should be the argument as I understand it is in the technical 'know how' mechanics require a lot more training than body techs...Not my opinion before someone gets their undies in a bunch, just the argument for the difference in rates, I have heard...I agree with you re: the health concerns, and the 'finess' required to repair rather than replace. This of course though is not an insurance issue, but within the auto repair industry it's self...Lori ... let's not be too silly here - a 7 year old car requiring replacement or refinishing of a bumper cover would either a) sustain no diminishment; or b) sustain such a minimal amount of diminishment that it wouldn't be worth pursuing
. I wasn't trying to be silly lets make it a two year old car in the same condition I discribed....My point was I don't think anyone could possibly argue that vehicle resulted in an 'increase' in value. Not a diminished one, right?Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 01:57 pm Post Subject: Auto body rates are the same as they were 4 years ago
Surcharge for heat in the winter and fuel charges are common place in every other industry but our's. We can't charge more for materials or labor but a fuel charge is wrong?? Lori must have some something special in her coffee! We can haggle all day but unless you write the checks for Our real estate, welders, frame machines, epoxies, fasteners, parts, and everything else involved is up over 30% in the last 2 years. Mechanics charge $80.00 to $100.00 an hour and we get $40.00 an hour. They plug in a scan tool or check a circuit and change a bolt on part.
We have to be metalurgists, frame specialists, adhesive experts, metal straighteners, coating specialists, color matching experts and do thier job also. For less than half the pay?? Yeah right we got it made and we are getting fat LOL. How our ROI, compared to the Insurance industry? We are no where near 30%, we are lucky to clear 3%. Invest in training and new technology hardly. Hang on to what we have is more like it.
I am going to work and I do not live in Lori's fantasy land.
I am making less than I did 5 years ago are you??
You may be fair to deal with Lori but the majority of adjusters and Insurance companies suck from my shop owner perspective. I would rather drive a semi than spend any money on new equipment in this industry. Over capacity maybe, cut throat Insurance companies? For sure!
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 03:05 pm Post Subject:
Post subject: Auto body rates are the same as they were 4 years ago
You're in the wrong area then because in my area they have went up each and every year...------------------------------------------Surcharge for heat in the winter and fuel charges are common place in every other industry but our's
Why don't you name about ten then since ''every'' industry charges for heat and fuel...gezzzzz......The guy that put siding and windows on my house didn't charge me a surcharge to heat his shop, nor did the plumber, when I get the oil or tires changed on my vehicle I don't pay a surcharge for heating the shop, and water to flush the stool...It's called ''OVER HEAD'' and is built into the cost of the job....Mechanics charge $80.00 to $100.00 an hour and we get $40.00 an hour. They plug in a scan tool or check a circuit and change a bolt on part
Good night nurse! That's a no brainer then...Why would you not just 'switch' to being a mechanic since all they do is plug in a scanner and turn a couple of bolts? Why would you not want to double your income? You chose to be a body tech, if there is so little to being a mechanic really I don't understand the problem.....switch! You'll be on easy street within a month...Hell, maybe I will too!Lori must have some something special in her coffee!
Lori gave up the booze years ago, but I must admit doesn't sound like too bad an idea right now.... :wink:We have to be metalurgists,
:lol: :D :PI am going to work and I do not live in Lori's fantasy land.
Lori has to work for a livin' too, not a fantasy land, but I'll grant you clearly a better place than you are in apparently.....I am making less than I did 5 years ago are you??
No I'm not I'm making more than I did 5 years ago, but again i say, dude! become a circuit checking, scanning, bolt turning mechanic! Ok, I'm teasin' ya there, but seriously, why on earth would you stay in a profession that you are losing THAT much money? really! I mean it, become a mechanic! You do understand that the mechanical vs body shop rate has absolutely nothing to do with the insurance industry right? You got that this a problem within the auto repair industry, or do you see this as the insurance companies fault as well?You may be fair to deal with Lori
All kidding and differences of opinion aside, I truly am, and you would be hard pressed to find even one shop owner, manager or tech within 200 miles of my home that would say differently... I'm not bragging, I'm just saying that I take my job very seriously and I'm not out to get anyone, I write and repair all cars the way I'd want mine repaired, period, I try every day to live and work by the golden rule, that's a personal decision.majority of adjusters and Insurance companies suck from my shop owner perspective
I hear ya, and feel genuninely sorry about this, but really have to ask, on your end of it, what do YOU do to better the situation/relationships? We can only control ourselves, I've been a part of many many many shop vs adjuster conversations, in attempts to gain a truly mutually benefical relationship. In most cases this can be accomplished, but not when (not saying you do) a shop owner starts a conversation with cursing out an adjuster calling them names etc. I've found that more times than not, it simply comes down to (generally) the adjuster needs further education on a particular repair process....I know I know they should be trained better and I agree, if I were the boss of the world ever adjuster would have to work in a shop for six months before hitting the road. All I'm asking is on your part master what have you done to 'help' rather than hender the relationship?Over capacity maybe, cut throat Insurance companies? For sure!
I agree many many ins companies are indeed 'cut throat' what do you mean by this ''over capacity'' (maybe)...I really don't know what you mean by that (sorry, please explain).........Lori has to go to work in her fantasy land as well, it's monday and we all know what that means.... :roll: Have a great day (i mean that :) )
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 05:52 pm Post Subject: Yes Lori, DV and Insurer Fraud exists, but Bigfoot may not!
Here are two Diminished Value Stories printed in the Chicago Tribune and another in the Baltimore Sun March 3rd, 2008.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/investing/bal-bz.ml.spending02mar02,0,776393.story
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/yourmoney/chi-ym-spending-0302mar02,0,3693238.story
Here is a link for the fraud study by CIC
http://www.princetonautobody.com/Docs/PDF/FraudReport.pdf
these links will most likely be disabled, so if anyone wants to review them; copy and paste them to your browser and leave the http:// off.
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 05:54 pm Post Subject:
No I'm not what I'm saying is a 50% increase is crazy, and will never happen..
So your saying the rates will never go up to $65 an hour? You better have some good reasons. $65 an hour is about what other trades charge per hour. A small engine repair shop charges $60-$65 a hour to fix lawnmowers and chainsaws. But we have to make a $55,000 Escalade look like it was new after the thing goes off a cliff for an average of $45 per hour. Seriously you have spent way to much time in your company training meetings, A.K.A brainwashing.
Don't you see that everyone from the repair business who posts here all say the same things?
I posted a link to this site so other people from the repair industry would read these post,s and comment. I hope any consumer who reads all these post's loses some respect for insurance companies and gains more towards who is really there to help them. The body shop.
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:35 pm Post Subject:
So your saying the rates will never go up to $65 an hour?
NO once again I'm saying50% increase is crazy
meaning it won't jump from 45-65 an hour in one increase that was what I was saying....You better have some good reasons. $65 an hour is about what other trades charge per hour.
I'm not saying you might not deserve 65 an hour, but you cannot argue that ''other'' trades make this so you should! Should I make 65 an hour because ''other trades'' do? My husband is a train engineer so should he make what ''other trades'' do as well? how about the same as a pilot? or less like a bus driver? it is of no use to your argument....But we have to make a $55,000 Escalade look like it was new after the thing goes off a cliff for an average of $45 per hour. Seriously you have spent way to much time in your company training meetings, A.K.A brainwashing
See why do you have to be that way? With the insults...??? can't think of anything constructive? Maybe you are the brainwashed one? Ever think of that? Suppose you've bought into all the ''new software'' designed to make frudently parts and towing invoices? That's your industry not mine...maybe you've ''bought into'' that being an honest way of doing business?I hope any consumer who reads all these post's loses some respect for insurance companies and gains more towards who is really there to help them. The body shop.
I'm sure they will gain a huge amount respect for some of the links you all have posted.... :roll: VERY adult and professional...why oh why can't you answer the questions and make your points with TRUE FACTS, and not be insulting? THAT my friend is one of the things that is distroying YOUR industry....How dare you say that I'm not there to 'help' the consumer, you don't know me! You are not qualified to make a remark like that! That is the reason I'm here to help people, don't see you doing anything to 'help' anything! Rather just leveling insults, it's fine if you want to educate a consumer, but to do so by throwing rocks at others is no way to do it, and any consumer with have a brain can see that! Look threw this site, and see how many people I'm not interested in helping! Are you reading some of these links? and the fact that most make zero sense...and all the UNSUBSTATIATED statements of fact that are not fact based at all?http://www.princetonautobody.com/Docs/PDF/FraudReport.pdf
same links over and over, I responded to this link in this thread http://www.ampminsure.org/community/viewtopic.php?p=19736#19736Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:07 pm Post Subject:
Here are two Diminished Value Stories printed in the Chicago Tribune and another in the Baltimore Sun March 3rd, 2008.
Actually, that is one article that is quoted in two places. I'm not understanding your point in posting them as they simple comment on what DV is. We all understand what it is and that some people think it exists (is valid) and others don't.Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:19 pm Post Subject:
Lori, When I mentioned the bird droppings etching the finish, I didn't mean while a vehicl was being painted, I meant after the finish has cured. Darker colors are more susceptable to this (I think because they get so much hotter). I'm not talking about "discount brand" finishes either - I've seen it happen to R-M, DuPont, Sikkens and PPG - all modern urethane finishes, not old enamels.
I've never heard of this complaint (paint from factory vs painted afterward). There is certainly a difference in the paint though.tcope mentioned something about a coalition to "police" the repair industry
News to me. I don't recall stating anything like that. I _do_ remembering asking if Mike thought all repair shops were 100% honest (given that he said insurance companies should not question a shops estimates or repairs). I never saw an answer.Lori, as far as warranties, I am speaking about the panel that was replaced not having a transferrable warranty. I don't know what kind of a vehicle you're driving, but if the manufacturer's warranty isn't transferrable, it might have been built in Taiwan (along with those imitation parts ... LOL - c'mon - that was a joke). Seriously though, I have never seen a manufacturers warranty that didn't transfer.
Good point. Off hand I don't know that the part's warranties don't transfer. But also, most vehicle sheet metal warranties are still only 4 years (some are now longer, but not many). Most carriers won't use LKQ or AM parts on a vehicle less then 2-3 years old anyway.But keep in mind that I'm simply agreeing that DV is simply a _perceived_ state. In reality, the vehicle _is_ the same. So way would any insurance company want to add to this perception? Look at it this way... if it's not known or forgotten, nothing has changed and we actually _ALL_ win. In reality, it's the people pushing DV that are hurting everyone.
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:23 pm Post Subject: Simply pointing them out and the fact that it is newsworthy.
People have apparently inquired and those papers sought an expert in Dennis Howard of the Insurance Consumers Advocate Network to explain to their readers when DV is owed and by who.
The only reason people seek me to help them collect their diminished value is that companies like carfax imply their damaged cars are worth less. People are becoming insurance saavy and know that someone owes them for their loss of value. States instruct vehicle owners with questions on DV that if they can prove their losses it is owed.
I spoke with a car salesman today about knowingly taking in trade-ins with accident histories. They generally send them straight to auctions because they do not want to taint their dealership lots with vehicles with accident histories with the uncertainty that they have been repaired properly. Why take on liability if you have no desire for it. They know they can't sell those cars for suggested fairmarket value without disclosure since they took them on trade with the knowledge they had an accident history. And they know that no one wants to purchase them at fair market value of comparable undamaged vehicles.
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