Infinite Banking with Whole Life

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:15 pm   Post subject: Infinite Banking with Whole Life  

I have a big policy with Lafayette Life, $450 permanent premium, $150

convertible term, $900 PUA can go up to $1400 PUA before MEC. I am only

6 months into it, it will come to fruition in about another 9 months when I pay off my first car balance with it freeing up $400 a month cash flow for more investments but of course repayment of that policy loan must be made up in there too.



I have another for my wife, Mass Mutual. It starts at 100% term and each payment converts that amount of term to permanent arriving at 100% permanent in 10 years. This feature is called LSIR. This also has their ALIR rider ( instead of PUA) that I elect to fund $2k up front first year cash deposit and then every year after to be paid at my schedule. I like this policy but I think this feature LSIR has higher fees and expenses but it also eliminates term insurance expenditure. I got this because it is funded by two small pensions and begins with high initial death benefit while avoiding term insurance expenditure, and is not intended to use for banking,

but using the ALIR annual $2k cash addition to get the poilicy up to self sufficiency several years early becasue my pensions funding it would stop on my death.



I am going to do a third policy, or second on my life, straight permanent, in about a year after some priorities are cought up. This will be with Guardian.



Just giving some backround that I know a little about this.



My question is for my daughter. She wants to start the banking concept, at age 26 and good combined income with her husband and available discretionary cash flow, She will want low term cost, highest cash value early, about $400 a month total premium. She may want the MassM ALIR feature that allows an

up front cash funding.



What is the best company for her to look at, for the purpose of a nominal permanent policy premium, the minimum term cost, and to maximize the cash value growth early? For example, I found out accidentally that MassM has this ALIR rider where cash value can be funded in lump sum up front and then flexibly each year after. It is hard to find what features each company provides. And I found out accidentally that

Lafayette is a top company out there that won't appear in routine internet

research.



Are there any other advice of good companies and good policy features. Are the top 3 in size necessarity the best?



If I don't see any more intormation we will probably do the MassM to get the ALIR feature. I am not sure if ALIR and PUA riders can combine in same policy.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 2:42 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
And I found out accidentally that Lafayette is a top company out there that won't appear in routine internet research.
Baloney. This company is easily found.



Quote:
Are there any other advice of good companies and good policy features. Are the top 3 in size necessarity the best?

The "best" insurance company is the one that pays a claim when submitted.



As for the "infintie banking" scams . . . don't expect Congress to ignore this "loophole" in the Internal Revenue Code for too much longer. When they get around to disallowing cash value loans on a "tax-free" basis to pay for Obamacare and their other fiscal foul ups, you will be stuck with high cost policies that won't provide the "benefit" you think you have today.



Life insurance was never intended to be a revolving door into the cash value. Congress allowed the access to cash value in case there was a cash emergency in the economy, not to enable you to take a cruise or buy a new car.



Like Coverdell savings programs, and HSAs to pay for medical expenses, my guess is that Congress is eventually going to disallow free access to life insurance cash values for "nonqualified" uses. The insurance companies will offer absolutely no protest to this. Why not? Because it means they will have near total control over those cash values -- the ability to play with the money, maximizing their returns and not have to worry about liquidating assets when too many people want to take a "free" loan, since most loans will not be "free" and most people will choose not to take them, or will choose to terminated their policies to obtain the cash value. Either way, the insurance company is relieved of certain burdens.



So go ahead and buy a hundred more whole life policies if you want to. Just start paying attention to what the politicians in Washington DC are talking about when they mention the word "revenue" -- because they don't have enough revenue to satisfy their craving for spending a trillion dollars more than they have in their pockets.



Thanks only to the "sequester" due to the Congressional impasse on the budget, our 2013 fiscal year (ending Sept 30) deficit is finally less than a trillion. But it won't be eliminated in the next two months.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:41 pm   Post subject:   

Ok thanks for the reply. Of course congress can change laws

and as usual diversification is necessary in all things. Immediately they are talking about scalping 401k and IRA like in Cyprus.

Once my two cars are paid for I don't expect to use my policies for banking. I would convert my term to permanent and reduce my PUA, maybe three years if I stay on schedule.

My other primary purpose for cash value is to make the policies self sufficient sooner and that is the obvious satutory use of PUA, and to accumulate out more dividend. Now just getting started, Nothing I would have in there would be "stuck" and would be there to become self sufficient sooner.

I hope that in 2-3 years my next venture may be to fund an annuity and that could be helped out of cash value.



So I will only need two years to fulfill my banking purposes and maybe three to get the initial cash value where I want it, I hope they dont change laws sooner.



I don't beleive in putting much in qualified plans or taxable, registered, and titled property but I do put in 401k up to the company match. In general I want off the

grid and out of the matrix as much as possible.



I just got a Lafayette annual report, 1st year premiums paid have exploded, so this is in the fad stage and that is something to be aware of those may not last too long before attracting congress attention.



I also suspect this may be where elite keep their money and if that is the case it could be a protected asset in the DC den of sorcerors as opposed to retail 401k, IRA availabe to congress to defraud.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:53 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
this may be where elite keep their money
Hardly. The "elite" -- as you think of them -- keep their money in the stock market, where they pay capital gains tax, not income tax. Unlike you, they have no fear of taxes, understanding them to be the price of living in a free democracy. Albeit one that has lost all concept of fiscal restraint.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:12 pm   Post subject:   

In general, I have been around a long time.



Infinite banking is no scam.



It is taxed money, and there is no loophole, the congress has no basis to tax or penalize taxed money, that is one beauty of it, to be all the way out of their matrix. I am not saying the congress is not criminal and will not do illegal things.



401k/IRA is the scam



I would still like to know if there are any special good companies out there that I don't know about not being convinced biggest is the best, and do these companies have unique offerings as I learned about the MassM ALIR up front funded version of PUA.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:29 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
the congress has no basis to tax or penalize taxed money
Really? Then you haven't been around long enough to have had to pay income taxes on your Social Security money. That, friend, is money already taxed once. Same as loan repayments to a 401(k) account is made with after tax money which is taxed again on withdrawal. That's not a scam, it's simply the rules that apply to 401(k)/403(b) accounts.



There is absolutely nothing in the way of Congress taxing life insurance loans if they decide to do that. Congress has the power to redefine life insurance any way it chooses, and if they want to put it into a parallel category right alongside 401(k) plans, you have very little say in the matter. As Congress begins to reconcile the fiscal mess the unfunded liabilities Obamacare, Social Security, and Medicare are creating, and their abject reluctance to increase income taxes and FICA contributions, or decrease benefits and other entitlements, they are instead looking at every conceivable way to generate revenue.



How did tanning parlors end up with a 10% excise tax on the cost of a tanning session? One way to pay for Obamacare. How did the Schedule A tax deduction AGI threshold for medical insurance premiums and unreimbursed expenses drift upward by 33.33%, from 7.5% to 10%, beginning with Tax Year 2014? To pay for Obamacare.



Do you really want your insurance company to be regulated by the federal government instead of the state, as most insurance companies are asking for? What is the next step for Congress and the Federal Insurance Office, but to take that oversight away from the states. Premium taxes of 1% to 2%? How about 5% to 10%. Your whole life contract is built on a 1% or 2% premium tax. The insurance company is powerless to raise your premium to account for higher taxes, so they will have to take it out of reserves. Your precious dividends will thin and could eventually evaporate.



Did you ever stop to wonder why it is that we have Modified Endowment Contracts today? It is precisely because Congress figured out that people were putting a ton of money into life insurance policies and immediately taking the money out, creating phantom cash value, and deducting the phantom interest on those loans.



I don't know anything about the Mass Mutual "ALIR" that allows one to fund paid up additions "up front." It makes little sense, other than one is deliberately overfunding their policy, but not to the MEC level.



Here's the problem with counting on dividends to create paid-up additions: dividends are not guaranteed. If something happens to an insurance company's reserve account (such as Congress or the states changing reserve requirements which force money into low-paying securities, as is happening with Universal Life and Annuities with "guaranteed iincome" riders), the profits won't materialize to provide the dividends policyowners may have come to expect as a given.



Your quest for smaller companies is a dangerous course. What draws money to those companies is high interest rates or excessive "dividends". Eventually, like a Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme, those high returns cannot be sustained, and when they fall off severely, people begin the search for the next best interest rate or "dividends" and start making 1035 Exchanges.



When the insurance company cash flow starts to decline, a whole new downward spiral begins, that can gather momentum very quickly and lead to insolvency. That's one of the worst things that can happen to an insurance company and its policyowners. The stinkiest contracts may not be palatable to stronger insurance companies willing to take over a block of business from another company on the outs, and if that hapens, people will be in line to lose money when their state guarantee association pays cash value recoveries to the statutory limit. It can take years, if ever, for company assets to be liquidated to provide addition payments from the "estate" of the dead insurance company.



Just ask some of those policyholders from the Executive Life fiasco who still have not recovered 100% of their losses.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:28 am   Post subject:   

I am planning on 3 different insurance companies for diversification. Lafayette, MassM, Guardian.

The 401k is with too big to jail JPMorgan.

I am collecting gold and silver coins, what else would I do?

I have in mind to acquire some alternate currencies, swiss

and chinese?



I have a 3rd excellent 50k miles 26 year old car for backup, it would show almost no confiscatable value on govt papers while it is priceless to me, paid for and no insurance waste except statue liabiity.



What else can I do. I know many of these govt fraud topics you are referring to.



My daughter is worried about an income distruption, job change, and making the premium payments. I am suggesting the ALIR at MassM is a way to start with paid up additions from the start ,for that piece of mind. It would be valuable to me if ALIR and PUA could be combined, I don't know yet.



I understand ALIR money is in there early and not paid a dividend for the full year



I have an offshore crib but no income if I got there, only what I would take with me. I have to make it 7 more years to SS which I doubt I get paid or I get paid with worthless currency.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:24 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
diversification.
LOL! You'll have three life insurance policies. That's not diversification that's just three life insurance policies.

Quote:
I have in mind to acquire some alternate currencies, swiss and chinese?
In your 401(k)? Ever bothered to read the Internal Revenue Code on that topic? And when the Chinese government stops the artificial support for the low yuan, your Chinese money will deflate overnight. That sounds like a real winner to me. Very high up on the diversification scale -- maybe you can buy a life insurance policy from a Chinese insurance company.

Quote:
I am suggesting the ALIR at MassM
Like I said, I have no idea what that is or how it works, but if your daughter is worried about paying life insurance premiums, she probably doesn't need life insurance as a savings account gimmick.

Quote:
I am collecting gold and silver coins, what else would I do?
Well, in the past 18-24 months, you've only lost about 30% on that. Congratulations! I hear hoarding nickels is the best thing going . . . double your money with every $2 roll you get from the bank. Sure beats gold and silver, don't you think?

Quote:
I have an offshore crib but no income if I got there, only what I would take with me. I have to make it 7 more years to SS which I doubt I get paid or I get paid with worthless currency.
So what exactly is it that causes you to want to hide from the government?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:01 pm   Post subject:   

Max,

To me, it sounds as though guest-tim has spent a great deal of time fine-tuning his plan. In your experience, how many life insurance policy owners actually develop a plan – and then stick with it?

Here’s something I don’t think you considered:

Remember the Young case in Turlock, CA? Where that 19 year old kid saw in a dream that he would die in December of his 25th year? That next year, when he was 20, he began buying those big policies – based on his dream?

Remember that he bought policies for his crack-addict biological mother, deadbeat dad, his girlfriend’s mom and had a trust put in place for his girlfriend’s son? When I interviewed them, they told me how they though he was crazy. They could not understand why he’d spend so much money on life insurance at his age. Four years later, in May of his 25th year, he was diagnosed with malignant thymoma and died painfully the following December. That young man, Chris, also had a plan and, by God, he stuck to it to the very end.



I've read through the posts a couple of times and I cannot find the part where guest-tim states that he'd like the benefit (face value) of any the life insurance policies paid to a beneficiary when he dies. Because you have no idea when his heart will stop beating, you simply cannot, even with your experience, make a determination as to whether or not his plan will work. If, for example, he dies in the next 10-15 years, his plan will probably work perfectly.



Those of us (yourself included) who participated in the investigation of literally thousands of Life Insurance Fraud cases have seen very dramatic changes in the industry, and not all of those have been good. I’m proud that some of those dramatic changes were the direct result of our investigations and subsequent law suits.



Face it; we really have no idea what the IRS, Congress, Senate, House of Representatives or anyone else, for that matter, is going to do tomorrow – much less ten years from now. If the national debt never increases, interest rates increase, the housing market returns to its 2006 level, immigration and welfare reform are miraculously settled and Obamacare is accepted by the Republicans as the best thing since sliced bread, we’ll all be better off.



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:15 pm   Post subject:   

Well my plan is varied. I have alot of time pressure because I only expect to work for 5-7 years. My health is not that good (pain) but my relatives lived very old so I don't expect to die. My plan is to put as much money aside as possible for emergency and personal financing to never pay interest again and to the extent possible never pay auto insurance waste. Part of my plan is to favor tax free property such as WL. I had BK, divorce, dissability, job loss, remarriage, and now have high interest rates. My plan is to have a good death benefit for my wife and children, I think I need 1M and have 500k now. If the death benefit is not used to my demise, my plan is to use the WL policies for income later. My plan is to be liquid and not attached to property, in my estimation of a collapsing society and economy, it is a principal of mine that transient people have no use for stuff. I do not want contracts and stuff that cannot be disposed of in a no big market. If SHTF and I head overseas I do not want to pay for storage for example, I do not want a mortgage trap or the property tax enslavement. Citizens can never own property only rent ( property tax).

I may take a mortgage in one year because of the tax frauds but I not want one. I am not sure that that mortgage interest will help enough after property tax relative to standard deduction, to weigh the risks of entrapment. One of my prinicpals is never contract with "them".

If SHTF which it is, just not televised yet, I have a plan to get to an offshore crib and need liquidity to live a few years.



So I am the owner of my wife's policy, my plan for that, is to be her income and liquidy much later instead of annuity, her daughter and my step is the beneficiary. I have the big policy devided between my wife and 3 children which is not enough and need another on my life to maximize death benefit for wife and 2 youngest.



I don't beleive in stocks and definitely not bonds, so the 401k is limited to stocks

as opposed to bonds. I do not do money market which is derivates of mortgages and Bernanke already said they will not defend money market NAV next time.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:33 pm   Post subject:   

I have no idea where you are coming from with these type of stamements and insults.



You obviously have decided not answer any question constructively and obviously hate WL, as does Suzy Orman and Dave Ramsey who I don't listen to much.



The currency is destroyed, food and gasoline surging, I have a place overseas where I can sustain 10 years or so, literally $2000 a year cost of living is a backup plan if and when this piece goes down which is obvious accelerating, for example the latest employment report is 75% new jobs are part time min wage(obamacare). My company industry and income would depend on a functioning society, not by the number of food stamps exceeding the number employed. My company makes products that ONLY go to functionally employed people. In fact there almost no manufacturing left in the country in my field, all destroyed, my age and health my leave me unemployable if the next disaster takes this company/factory down whch is only a matter of time on their track record of fraud and incompetence and failure.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:45 am   Post subject:   

guest-tim,

Because there are no other posts after mine, I have to assume that you were addressing me when you wrote:



Quote:
I have no idea where you are coming from with these type of stamements (sic) and insults.




Which specific types of statements are you referring to? Furthermore; Please point out the part where I insulted you.



I told my associate, Max Herr, that I believed your plan was well thought out and I believed it would work fine. Provided, that is, you die in the next 10-15 years. Is that where you feel I've insulted you? If so, I guess I could apologize for breaking the news to you in that way. However, since I believe my level of experience and insurance education is light years ahead of yours, I think I'll hold off on my apology.



When Larry King discovered that he'd been misled to by his trusted insurance professional, he didn't call Suzy Orman and Dave Ramsey, he called me.



When Charles B. Benenson, who once employed Donald Trump, had a problem with High-profile trusts and estates lawyer Jonathan Blattmachr, he didn't call Suzy Orman and Dave Ramsey, he called me.



When Mr. and Mrs. Singh from Los Altos (I'm bound in this case) spent $60 million over 11 years on 8 different life insurance policies, guess who they didn't call? You're correct; Suzy Orman and Dave Ramsey.



I have absolutely no intention of arguing with you in this matter. Please carry on with your "varied" plan - I wish you nothing but luck with it. If, in the future you discover that you are going to outlive your plan, go onto Google and type in these words:
Quote:
Life Insurance Fraud Investigator




If a class action suit hasn't eliminated any recourse you might have, we'll take a look at it and hopefully you won't have lost too much money.



Good luck and best wishes.

Mark J Colbert


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:49 am   Post subject:   

No I am not referring to you InsInvestigator, you have been a gentleman.



I will check out the Life Insurance Investigator link.



I don't know what you mean about outliving my policy.

My wife's policy is age 120 so not problem, my daughter's will

be 120, and my 2nd on my life will be 120.



The first policy is big for investment and banking. It will be scaled down by

converting term to permanent, and reducing PUA substantially in about 2 years.

But my priority is build up a tax free working capital base. When coverting term to permanent I will be aware to make a 120 age straigth WL

death benefit policy for my children.



My big Lafayette policy is 10 years pay, I intended to have paid up additions to finish inputting new premium payments

at 5-7 years. So I will need to find out what you mean about outliving my policy. I didn't see any indication of such a problem in my illustration, would I not remove the cash value at any time the cash value exceeds death benefit ( which would be my current thought to be removing the cash value for a variety of uses and income for example I may be retired overseas at 2k a year basic living expenses and do quite well when there is no SS or SS is paid in worthless currency ). My big policy cash value may serve many purposes as conditions change and occur.



My biggest fear is that this is dollar denominated and subject to all financial risks of paper and so I pursue other places to accumulate and store wealth as I can, currently I have no available new cash flow to store wealth until the main policy pays off two car loans. After one year I will be looking for a place to store about $800 a month.



InsInvestigator, I saw what you made appears to be a favorable view of obamacare. Here is quite a different source of information that you may or may not know about. In my preparations for the future, my premise is that everything they do is a disaster and I like WL because it is as far away from "them" as one can get.



look up youtube, denninger karl

"setting up for a financial crisis worse than 1929" about 3 days ago



I have many sources of information but this is topical about obamacare and other points of view that I am aware of and agree with.



I ran a professional investment site, I do stuff with stocks and stock markets that is proprietary mathematics. I am saying now that we have to about April 2014 and look for conditions and indicators then, as my model can change by then but this appears solid in my models.



In 2007, I found the feds own report that stated people withdrew and spent 7% of gdp out of home equity. While inflation was 3-5% and gdp growth reported 1-2%, I estimated the ecomony was contracting +2(gdp)-4(inflation)-7(debt fraud) = -9 giving them rounding benefits of doubt. So I do more than my mathematical model from a tangible factual top line key input level of macro interpretation. And the market collapsed one year later. I can't say exactly Apr '14 and don't attempt to.



I gave up my site when I was in new job start with relocation with divorce and my site was terminally hacked quite suspiciously, I think I got too close to the truth.

I may start it up but now my health requires that I reserve energy for my job and I am paid well and owe that to the job.



Of the shrinkage in my industry to almost nothing domestically, I am one of a handful of old timers still working, all gone to pasture, it does say something about my talent of course that doesn't make me right in all other things like insurance.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:47 am   Post subject:   

a couple of key points with my thoughts of the denninger interview.



the actual cost of medical services is 20-25% of the cabalist extortion. This is document tangible fact by the cash only service providers and offshore medical systems. My plan is to use by policy cash as a reserve, with high deductible local policy and possible offshore catastrophic policy.



the system is a total disaster from top line fact, obvious but stated by Denninger, the money in the system, does not exist thus already dead on arrival. Imagine the fraud in 15000 new irs agents to enforce obamacare which is 30k on the payroll when the first lot is paid in retirement.



Top line fact, the money does not exist. My semi-retired dissabled coworkwer who just cut hours from 4 8's to 4'4's due to pain, is told when taking his wife in to apply for obamacare, his wife's premium is 9k a year, one person, on 70 gross income which is what, 50k net income? For two people 18k premium on 50k is 36% new tax.



So it is intentional mass wealth transfer to cabal intended to bankrupt all americans out of all their property.



Did I mention, I possess and want no registered, titled, taxable property and I like some safety and exemptions of WL relative to confiscation.



I am keeping and paying on two cars post bankrupt because they have no contract. I will have a big problem with these when they don't have a lien and have a confiscatible value, on obamacare tax confiscation which may be 25k annual on my gross. I may be overseas for this reason alone.



So in my work, my facility has improved 12% profitibablity by my hand. Anyone with a value, talent, contribution, working brain will be finding a way out leaving 100% food stamps and part time min wage class thriving because they have nothing for obamacare to confiscate and no hope or intention.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:31 am   Post subject:   

This thread has now descended into somewhat incomprehensible and utterly ridiculous nonsense.



Quote:
when taking his wife in to apply for obamacare, his wife's premium is 9k a year, one person, on 70 gross income which is what, 50k net income? For two people 18k premium on 50k is 36% new tax.
First off, there is no "Obamacare" to apply for. Health insurance is obtained from insurance companies, HMOs, and PPOs. Health insurance premiums are not a tax, just like your infinite banking life insurance premiums are not a tax. It's a voluntary contribution to an insurance company in exchange for a contract that provides certain benefits and details the additional out-of-pocket costs one may encounter.



I don't know where you are getting your numbers from, but a silver plan for two persons age 64 in California will be about $16,560. A lower cost bronze plan is also available, as are more costly gold and platinum plans.



If you (or your friend and his wife) want to pay a tax relative to Obamacare, you can each pay the $95 "shared responsibility payment" to the IRS in 2014 (and higher amounts in subsequent years) and save the other $8985 you seem to think the health insurance will cost. Put that money into your life insurance and take it out as needed to pay your hospital and doctor bills. When you get really sick, then you can apply for insurance and be guaranteed coverage.



None of us in the insurance industry ever thought Obamacare was going to result in affordable insurance premiums, but apparently the labor unions who paid the politicians to vote for the ACA did. And now they're hopping mad about the fact that their members are being reduced in work hours to their employers don't have to provide them with the insurance they once had. What goes around, comes around.


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