Death without a named beneficiary

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:58 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
Experts I've a question..... would a policy ever be issued where there is no named beneficiary? I mean, wouldn't it simply defy the purpose of maintaining life insurance if I don't have anyone to pass an asset after my death?




In this discussion, what is more common is that a policy has a beneficiary designation, but the beneficiary is no longer living.



At issue, an insurance company would typically deny any application without a named beneficiary. However, this isn't always the case with a group policy.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:07 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Hi..



I guess Expert is only claiming that it's impossible to



pass it on to the estate when the owner and the insured



are two different people. So, I don't get the confusion



over here.



Steven




That's part of what I'm claiming. My claim is twofold.



1) An insurance policy can have default beneficiaries. For instance, it can be like I described where it goes to the owner if the owner is alive or the owner's estate if the owner is dead. Another example would be where it automatically goes to the spouse of the insured if living and if the spouse isn't living, it goes to the children.







2) It doesn’t make sense for the 1st default beneficiary to be the estate of the owner, nor does it make sense for it to be the estate of the insured. I’m not claiming that it doesn’t often get paid to the estate of the owner. However, this can only happen if the owner and the beneficiary are separate people and there are no default beneficiaries to the contrary.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:47 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Insurance Expert,



I have no idea what your point is with this thread.



It's not done the way you desribe EVER!



That's right,... I said, EVER.



I'll say it again and try to use stronger language. When the beneficiary designation is left blank on a life insurance policy or an annuity contract the proceeds are paid to "The Estate" of the owner of the policy.



E V E R Y T I M E.



Period.

End of story.



Please provide any state law to the contrary because I like to know which state has a distribution method for this situation outside of the Probate Court system.



PLEASE, I'm not asking for your opinion SHOW-ME the state law that supports your claims.




Gary, you are asking me to prove a negative. You are the one that is saying that there is a law that says that a blank beneficiary designation must be paid to the estate of the owner.



This is the best that I can do for “proof” that you are wrong.



1) I can’t find any law that says what you are claiming. Can you? I’d love to see it. I can’t find a law that doesn’t exist. Where is the law that says that there can’t be a default beneficiary?

2) See this thread from yesterday/today. This is an example of a policy without a beneficiary named and the insurance company not paying to the owner’s estate. http://www.ampminsure.org/life/not-signed-beneficiary.html

3) If an owner is alive, it would be impossible for an insurance company to comply with the law since a living person doesn’t have an estate.

4) Grab the first life insurance application that you can find. Look at the beneficiary designations. Most likely, in small print, there are default designation or it directs you to the contract. It doesn’t make sense to have default designations that can’t be followed.



I’m not arguing that the proceeds don’t often get paid to the estate. However, when this happens, it is because the owner and the insured are the same person and there are either no default provisions or the default provision is the estate. It is not because of state law.



It also wouldn’t surprise me if there is law that says that the proceeds get paid to the estate if the owner and the insured are the same person and there is no beneficiary listed and no default beneficiary.



The point of the thread is to correct incorrect information. On this board it has been told to people that if a beneficiary designation is not specifically named, the money will automatically go to the owner’s estate. That simply isn’t accurate information.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:21 am   Post subject:   

Insurance expert,



I agree with you! That was exactly what happened with me. Our insurance compay couldn't find our beneficiary form. They sent me a form that showed what would happen. If there was a spouse then it would be paid to them. If there wasn't then it would go to the children ect. Luckly for me if anyone was going to contest it, I actually had a copy of the beneficiary form at home stating that I was

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:43 am   Post subject:   

Thanks for backing me up, Melanie. It's not too often that I post incorrect information, but if I'm wrong, I hope that Gary has something showing me the errors of my ways. I've tried hard to find something that contradicts what I'm saying, but I have been unable to find anything.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:01 pm   Post subject:   

Melanie wrote:

Quote:
I agree with you! That was exactly what happened with me. Our insurance company couldn't find our beneficiary form. They sent me a form that showed what would happen. If there was a spouse then it would be paid to them. If there wasn't then it would go to the children ect. Luckly for me if anyone was going to contest it, I actually had a copy of the beneficiary form at home stating that I was




Dear Melanie,



You are confused with the facts.



The original Primary Beneficiary on EVERY life insurance policy and EVERY annuity contract written in the United States of America with EVERY life insurance company and that means ALL life insurance companies is designated on the ORIGINAL APPLICATION.



The life insurance policy OR annuity contract WOULD NOT be issued without at least a Primary Beneficiary designation.



Insurance Expert is actually an anonymouse *CCC with mouse being the operative word.



Certified Clueless Clown



Probably from Kiplinger’s as they have the largest collection of CCCs on that site.



If ALL beneficiaries PREDECEASE the Owner/Insured or IF there ARE NOT any beneficiaries designated in the policy OR a subsequent Beneficiary Change Form then the proceeds of the policy would be paid to the Owner/Insured’s ESTATE upon the Owner/Insured’s death.



PERIOD.

END OF STORY.




Best regards,



P.S. #1, Don’t you just hate these so-called “experts” who won’t actually identify themselves on the Internet?



P.S. #2, Show-Me any state’s state law to the contrary and I’ll give you a gold star. By the way I don’t give a damn how it’s done in any “other” state other than Florida.



Florida Statute 222.13 is unambiguous.



Insurance Expert please identify yourself so I can check you “credentials” I’d just like to know if you are properly insurance licensed and if so how many “letters" you have after your name and how many years experience you have in the biz!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:13 pm   Post subject:   

Insurance Expert wrote:

Quote:
Gary, you are asking me to prove a negative. You are the one that is saying that there is a law that says that a blank beneficiary designation must be paid to the estate of the owner.




Click THIS LINKY.

222.13 Life insurance policies; disposition of proceeds.--



(1) Whenever any person residing in the state shall die leaving insurance on his or her life, the said insurance shall inure exclusively to the benefit of the person for whose use and benefit such insurance is designated in the policy, and the proceeds thereof shall be exempt from the claims of creditors of the insured unless the insurance policy or a valid assignment thereof provides otherwise.



Notwithstanding the foregoing, whenever the insurance, by designation or otherwise, is payable to the insured or to the insured's estate or to his or her executors, administrators, or assigns, the insurance proceeds shall become a part of the insured's estate for all purposes and shall be administered by the personal representative of the estate of the insured in accordance with the probate laws of the state in like manner as other assets of the insured's estate.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:15 pm   Post subject:   

Gary, I'm disappointed in your reading comprehension. It is unambiguous, but the statute doesn't say what you think that it says.



The first paragraph simply says that if the death benefit goes to a person, that death benefit will be exempt from the creditors of the insured person.



The second paragraph says when the beneficiary is the insured or the insured's estate, it is treated like any other assets and thus, it won't have the same protection from creditors. The reason doesn't matter. ie. It can be a named beneficiary or it can be a default beneficiary.



There is nothing in those paragraphs that says that if a beneficiary isn't named, the money must go to the estate of the owner.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:56 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
The original Primary Beneficiary on EVERY life insurance policy and EVERY annuity contract written in the United States of America with EVERY life insurance company and that means ALL life insurance companies is designated on the ORIGINAL APPLICATION.




It is stated, but sometimes it is stated by something along the lines of, "if no beneficiary is named or if no beneficiaries are alive at time of death, the beneficiaries will be X, Y, Z."



Quote:
If ALL beneficiaries PREDECEASE the Owner/Insured or IF there ARE NOT any beneficiaries designated in the policy OR a subsequent Beneficiary Change Form then the proceeds of the policy would be paid to the Owner/Insured’s ESTATE upon the Owner/Insured’s death.



PERIOD.

END OF STORY.






You have thus far completely failed to explain how a policy can be paid to someone’s estate if that person is still alive. You have also failed to show any indication of any law that talks about where the money must be paid if there is no beneficiary designated by the owner. I also can’t find any law addressing this because I think that there is a good chance that there isn’t one. Why would one be needed as long as each insurer has a way to determine the payout in these situations?



I have 20 years in the business. Everything else about me will remain anonymous. It’s not by choice. Because I’m a registered rep, my B/D won’t let me post anything in any other manner. I am licensed in Florida.



I have checked with the insurance company that I originally mentioned to see what they do in Florida in this case. They pay to the owner if the owner is alive. Otherwise, they pay to the owner’s estate. How does this relate to the statute that you posted? It simply means that this money is exempt from creditors when the owner and the insured are not the same person.





Instead of wasting time checking my credentials, find a law that backs you up or an insurance company that agrees with you. I can be the janitor at an elementary school and have never been licensed in my life. That doesn’t change the fact that I’m right about this. Heck, I don’t even think that you can find an agent on this board that is going tell me that I’m wrong on this.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:35 am   Post subject:   

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I have 20 years in the business. Everything else about me will remain anonymous. It’s not by choice. Because I’m a registered rep, my B/D won’t let me post anything in any other manner. I am licensed in Florida.


What an absolute load of bllsht. Rolling Eyes



Razz I'm.... ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING OUT LOUD! Razz



Who's your Broker-Dealer? Bernard Madoff?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:37 am   Post subject:   

Gary, I guess that you are one of those people who find it easier to change the subject than to "man up" and admit when they are wrong.



Posting on the internet is considered advertising by FINRA. Registered reps can't advertise without getting prior permission from their B/D. This means that in order for a RR to post, their B/D would need to approve the post in advance. I don't post B.S. I post correct information and when I post something that's wrong, I admit it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:52 am   Post subject:   

Okay, well I'm glad we got that cleared up. Rolling Eyes



BackToTheTopic:

At the risk of losing my SAFE designation I'll RESTATE what I've already stated........



I'll say it again and try to use stronger language. When the beneficiary designation is left blank on a life insurance policy or an annuity contract the proceeds are paid to "The Estate" of the *owner of the policy.



E V E R Y T I M E.



Period.

End of story.



Please provide any state law to the contrary because I like to know which state has a distribution method for this situation outside of the Probate Court system.



PLEASE, I'm not asking for your opinion SHOW-ME the state law that supports your claims.



*This presumes the Owner and the Insured are one and the same person. Which is almost ALWAYS, most of the time, the way it’s done.



So called, “Insurance Expert”



PLEASE PROVIDE ANY STATE LAW TO THE CONTRARY.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:15 pm   Post subject:   

Gary, if there is no beneficiary and the owner and the insured are the same person, the money will get paid to the owner/insured's estate. I'm not arguing that point.



What I'm arguing is whether a beneficiary has to be specifially named or not. Death without a beneficiary is a very different subject than death without a named beneficiary. If a beneficiary is left blank that does not mean that there is no beneficiary. A life insurance is a contract. An insurance company can't issue a contract in a state that is inconsistent with state law. If a life insurance contract says, "If no beneficiaries are alive, the policy will be paid in the following manner...", it will be paid according to that default manner and it would be no different than writing in the name of those people.



That modifier that you have added is important. It's not a small portion of life insurance that does not have the owner and the beneficiary being the same person. The owner and the insured are usually the same person only if we decide to not include all of the BOLI (Bank owned) policies, all of the COLI (corporate owned) policies, all of the STOLI (stranger owned) policies, all of the policies on wealthy people, all of the policies funding buy-sells, all of the kiddie policies, etc. That is one heck of a lot of policies where the owner and the insured aren't the same.



It is certainly true that a kitchen table sale typically has the husband the owner of the policy on his life. So what?



Again, not only can't I find a state law that is contrary, I can't find state law that supports what you are saying. You are the one saying that things have to be a certain way. You have been given examples from real people showing that you are wrong.



At what point over the last couple of days did this law that you keep mentioning change so that it only applies when the owner and the insured are the same person? What happens when the owner and the insured are not the same person.



The probate court system isn't needed when there is a default beneficiary.



What you basically saying in this conversation is that it's not legal to have a default beneficiary despite all evidence to the contrary and your inability to find a law to back up your point of view and your unwillingness to call an insurance company.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:26 pm   Post subject:   

Gary, If I'm understanding this correctly, and admittedly I may not be. I think what the expert is saying is that there are policys that address no beneficary, and how the policy will be distributed if there are none, rather than automatically going to the 'estate'...I've seen these policys myself..most state employee policys (for sure) will state things like this for Orgeon govt. employees,

Quote:
NO BENEFICIARY

If you do not designate a beneficiary to receive the proceeds of your life insurance or if no designated

beneficiary survives you, your life insurance benefit will be paid in the following order to your:



1. Surviving spouse;

2. Surviving children, divided equally

3. Surviving parents, divided equally

4. Estate



http://oregon.gov/DOC/HR/docs/payroll_news/beneficiaries.doc






It would appear that in the great state of Missouri..The 'estate' is number four in the pecking order...
Quote:
In the event the last named beneficiary dies before you, or if no beneficiary shall have been named, the life insurance will be paid to your wife or husband, if living; if not living, equally to your surviving children; if none survive, to either your mother or father, or to both equally if both survive; if there are no such survivors, to the executor or administrator of your estate." http://openjurist.org/477/f2d/319/john-hancock-mutual-life-insurance-c ompany-v-jackson-l-p




I have been thru this on a personal level with my brothers death...all the policys stated the distribution list if either no named beneficary, or the beneficary pre-deceased the insured...an no he was not a state or gov't employee...nor did it have to thru probate.
Quote:
What an absolute load of bllsht
Gary, because you CHOSE to put your personal information out there, in no way makes you any better or worse, or more or less informed than another...Most people (including myself) don't care to allow every nut in the bunch to be able to track me down if they so chose. I don't know about the 'expert', but I do know that the company I work for also doesn't allow me to post using my own name, regarding insurance, without their expressed permission.
Quote:
I can be the janitor at an elementary school
Hey, my sister is, they prefer, ''engineer'' LaughingWink


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:14 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
I have 20 years in the business. Everything else about me will remain anonymous. It’s not by choice. Because I’m a registered rep, my B/D won’t let me post anything in any other manner. I am licensed in Florida.


Our b/d feels the same way. The told us no blogs, forums, IMs, social networking, ....



Even if we post strictly in the role of an insurance agent, they aren't happy with it.


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