Death without a named beneficiary

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 2:02 pm   Post subject:   

Lori, et al...



I don't care how they do it in any "other" state than Florida.



In Florida...the ONLY jurisdiction I care about...if there isn't a named beneficiary designation those proceeds WILL be paid to the Estate of the Owner/Insured if they are one and the same person on LIFE INSURANCE.



Annuity contracts are another story....most are ANNUITANT driven, if the Owner and the Annuitant ARE NOT one and the same person and the ANNUITANT dies the proceeds are paid to the named beneficiaries. The Owner may or may not be one of the beneficiaries.



The insurance company determines whether the policy is ANNUITANT driven or Owner driven.



RE: The stock broker "registered representatives" and THEIR Broker-Dealers.



I have ZERO respect for ANONYMOUS posters on the Internet. They spread disinformation and hide behind their screen names.



This thread is an example of a waste of bandwidth as so-called Insurance Expert is making a pointless point that doesn't apply to most all life insurance contracts written.



Of course, that's why I hold the only SAFE designation in the United States of America!



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 3:42 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
I don't care how they do it in any "other" state than Florida.


First of all how narrow minded of you, and second of all this is what you put in your post...

Quote:
Please provide any state law to the contrary because I like to know which state has a distribution method for this situation outside of the Probate Court system.


Now wait a minute Gary, you seem to (once again) be back pedaling...
Quote:
Expert is making a pointless point that doesn't apply to most all life insurance contracts written.
"most" is not "all"...as you now appear to be backing down from your ''all'' ''every time'' argument...I see no where that the expert said, 'all' or 'every' rather he said, 'some' ....



Why I go to the bother to prove you wrong I'll never know, because you are the one and only person on this site that will NEVER admit they are wrong or have made a mistake, about anything, but for the general publics information...Gary does NOT know everything!



Quote:
If there is no named Beneficiary, or none survive you, the benefit will be paid in equal shares to the first surviving class in the following order:

1. your spouse;

2. your children;

3. your parents;

4. your brothers and sisters; and

5. your estate.


This is a FLORDIA group policy, and in fact all the group policys, as well as all state, and federal employee policys, I've looked at for FLORIDA say the same thing..now are group policys different than private ones? Sure they are..but they are life policys none the less..so to refresh..NO WAY NO HOW do ALL life policys in the great state of Flordia automatically go to the estate if a beneficary is not designated...PERIOD END OF STORY...
Quote:
TECO GROUP LIFE INSURANCE TECO Plaza 4,

TECO Energy, P. O. Box 111, Tampa FL 33601-0111 http://tecoedge.tecoenergy.com/data/files/Life_Ins_Beneficiary.doc




One more for good measure:



Quote:
Term Life Insurance Program

For employees of the State of Florida• Default beneficiary. If you do not name a

beneficiary, benefits are paid in the order spelled

out in the policy (your spouse, children, parents

or your estate).

About your life insurance from the State of FloridaFor assistance understanding your life insurance program, call Minnesota Life’s Tallahassee Branch Office at 888-826-2756. http://www.hr.ufl.edu/benefits/openenrollment/2007/Minnesota_Life_2008 .pdf
Pretty much all I can after these examples to you Gary is 'BAM'...







Quote:
I have ZERO respect for ANONYMOUS posters on the Internet. They spread disinformation and hide behind their screen names.
Looks to me by this thread, a 'non-anonymous' poster (yourself) is spreading disinformation! Then you have zero respect for me, Tcope, Ins Teacher, Maze, and many other regular contributors, that are truly here to help others, and are different from you in that if we do make a mistake, we own it, consider ourselves corrected and better for the knowledge..Good to know how you feel Gary, and what a pity, and truely a disappointment. Of course I guess in the end this explains why you've been banned (by your own admission) from every other forum you've participated in. And also I guess this level of arrogance should be expected from anyone that 'self appoints' themselves as an 'expert'..on anything...



Why don't you start your own forum so you can be the ONLY poster...It's clear the sound of your own voice, or site of your words is by far your favorite thing, and purpose in posting anyway...


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:00 am   Post subject:   

Lori, great post.



This thread started because in numerous threads there were comments that if there were no named beneficiaries, the policy would be paid to the estate. It was an area in which I never gave too much thought since as an agent, it is my job to make sure that beneficiaries are named.



At first blush, it would seem to make sense that it goes to the estate. I chimed in during another thread that it would go to the estate if there were no default beneficiaries, and I agreed that in most cases, it would go to the estate. As I look into this subject more closely, it appears as if I am right and am wrong.



If the owner and the insured are the same person, and there is no default beneficiary, it would go to the estate. I was right about that part. However, as I pay closer attention to this subject, it does appear as if default beneficiaries are usually (mostly? always?) listed.



Gary, I can't help but notice that you changed your "always" on annuity contracts between the 1st and 3rd page.



Gary, if you know that there is a Florida statute that says something differently than what people are telling you, why are you unwilling to show it to us? (I can't show you one showing the opposited because I don't think a statute like this exists.) Are you not willing to look into this because you are afraid that you might be wrong?



It sucks that I have to remain anonymous. I have no desire to do so. The choice of a registered rep is to remain anonymous or risk fines and/or losing one's career. It seems pretty silly of you to not respect someone for following the rules of their profession.



As you are seeing, the point that I'm making applies to most life insurance contracts. It applies to every life insurance contract in which the owner and the beneficiary are not the same person and it applies to every life insurance contract that has a default beneficiary. It would not matter if my point only applied to a few contracts.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:18 am   Post subject:   

Arrow The great thing about thread wars is they go on and on and on and on.....



Dear Lori,



Thank you for spreading more DISINFORMATION by quoting language from group life insurance that more likely than not is administered and regulated under ERISA.



Let's see if I can get a straightforward answer from Lori on a simple straightforward question.



Lori, DO YOU KNOW the difference from group life/health administered under the Federal Law ERISA from group life/health insurance regulated under State Law from individual life/health regulated under State Law?



Please answer Yes or No.



For the General Public who may read this thread:



THERE IS ONLY ONE (1) “DEFAULT” BENEFICIARY ON A LIFE INSURANCE CONTRACT.



“The Estate” meaning the proceeds are administered and paid out according to STATE LAW under the Probate Court System like any “other” Probate Asset. This is the absolute worst way for life insurance benefits to be paid because now those proceeds are subject to creditor claims and attorney fees just like any other inventory asset of the estate.



Now since ALL thread wars become circular on page 1 of this thread I posted:



Quote:
222.13 Life insurance policies; disposition of proceeds.--



(1) Whenever any person residing in the state shall die leaving insurance on his or her life, the said insurance shall inure exclusively to the benefit of the person for whose use and benefit such insurance is designated in the policy, and the proceeds thereof shall be exempt from the claims of creditors of the insured unless the insurance policy or a valid assignment thereof provides otherwise.



Notwithstanding the foregoing, whenever the insurance, by designation or otherwise, is payable to the insured or to the insured's estate or to his or her executors, administrators, or assigns, the insurance proceeds shall become a part of the insured's estate for all purposes and shall be administered by the personal representative of the estate of the insured in accordance with the probate laws of the state in like manner as other assets of the insured's estate.






On page one, post number 12, I wrote:



Quote:
I'll say it again and try to use stronger language. When the beneficiary designation is left blank on a life insurance policy or an annuity contract the proceeds are paid to "The Estate" of the owner of the policy.



E V E R Y T I M E.



Period.

End of story.



Please provide any state law to the contrary because I like to know which state has a distribution method for this situation outside of the Probate Court system.



PLEASE, I'm not asking for your opinion SHOW-ME the state law that supports your claims.




This simple request has yet to be found by my adversaries.



SHOW-ME the state law that supports your claims.



I want Chapter and Verse.



DO NOT QUOTE from a hocking pucking employee handbook.



I want the STATE LAW that says there is…”so-called” DEFAULT BENEFICIARIES for life insurance proceeds when the designation is left blank OR all beneficiaries predeceased the OWNER/INSURED.



SHOW-ME because I’m from Missouri with from being the operative word.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:46 am   Post subject:   

Quote:
I’m from Missouri with from being the operative word.
Who do I need to thank for that ? Rolling Eyes





How about a law that says that the insurance policy wording takes presedent over the state law will that work?



Quote:
Thank you for spreading more DISINFORMATION by quoting language from group life insurance that more likely than not is administered and regulated under ERISA
So? Is it a life policy? yes or no?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 9:07 am   Post subject:   

My, my, my....how convoluted can we get....



Quote:
How about a law that says that the insurance policy wording takes presedent over the state law will that work?




Well, Lori, since the insurance industry is governed by STATE LAW there isn't ANYTHING in a life insurance CONTRACT that would be contrary to STATE LAW...and further if something in the contract is in conflict with STATE LAW the STATE LAW would win everytime if taken to court and challenged.



Since you answered my question with a question I'll take that to mean you don't know..... the difference from group life/health administered under the Federal Law ERISA from group life/health insurance regulated under State Law from individual life/health regulated under State Law?



Now,.... please,.... SHOW-ME the state law that says the life insurance contract that's regulated under state law takes precedent over state law.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:35 pm   Post subject:   

Gary, Congratulations. If you are only willing to be defeated in this argument by having someone point you to the law that says that you are wrong, you can't lose this argument.



My claim: An insurance company can have default beneficiaries.



Your claim: An insurance company can't have default beneficiaries. All policies in the state of Florida that don't have a specific named beneficiary will be paid to the estate of the owner.



In general, in order for something to be illegal, there has to be a law prohibiting the behavior. There does not need to be a law allowing a specific behavior.



It's impossible for me to do what you want and "show-you" the state law since it doesn't exist. However, if you are correct, it is possible for you to "show-me" the state law. The question is whether you are willing to try to do this at the risk of finding out that you may be incorrect. I think that it's pretty obvious that too much of your ego is tied up in this to take a chance of admitting that you are incorrect.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:51 pm   Post subject:   

Gary, why do you keep quoting 222.13? It has no relevance to our conversation. Nowhere does it talk about not allowing default beneficiaries. This is a law about creditor protection. I'll translate it again in case you missed it the first time.



The first part says that if it gets paid to a beneficiary, it is immune to claims from the creditors of the insured. The second part says that if it is paid to the insured or the insured's estate, it does not receive creditor protection. It is treated like the rest of the estate's assets.



In fact, with further reading, if anything, that law backs up what I am saying.



Quote:
the said insurance shall inure exclusively to the benefit of the person for whose use and benefit such insurance is designated in the policy




Ex. Joe died. He was the owner and the insured of the policy. Sara, his wife, was beneficiary, but she died one year earlier. There is no contingent beneficiary. The policy has default beneficiaries. The default is 1)spouse 2)children 3)parents 4)siblings 5)estate.



Therefore, according to the statute that you have provided, the money will go to the children because that is what the policy designates.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:00 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
Well, Lori, since the insurance industry is governed by STATE LAW there isn't ANYTHING in a life insurance CONTRACT that would be contrary to STATE LAW...and further if something in the contract is in conflict with STATE LAW the STATE LAW would win everytime if taken to court and challenged.




Gary, you are correct that the insurance industry is governed by state law and there isn't anything in a life insurance contract that would be contrary to state law. So, please explain why insurance contracts in the state of Florida have default beneficiaries.



The only thing that I can think of is that default beneficiaries are not contrary to Florida law.



It should be pretty obvious that if default beneficiaries were not allowed then contracts that have them would not be approved in the state of Florida. Grab the first policy that you find. You'll quickly discover that I'm correct.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:38 pm   Post subject: Insurance with no beneficiary  

When I worked at a law office here in Missouri, I did mainly probate law. I would never claim to be an expert!!!! However, with that said, the few insurance policies I saw that didn't have a beneficiary, paid to the Estate. When the Estate was settled, if there was money left, it was then distributed to the heirs. I never saw insurance money go straight to the heirs unless they were listed as beneficiaries.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:01 pm   Post subject:   

mswatson27, since you did probate law that is exactly what you would see.



If there was a named beneficiary, the policy wouldn't be probated. If there was a default beneficiary other than the estate or the insured, the policy wouldn't be probated. If the owner of the policy wasn't the insured, it wouldn't be probated.



Therefore, the only thing that you would ever see were death claims with the estate as a beneficiary or no default beneficiary.



What this is about is whether a policy can have a default beneficiary. Thus far, we have plenty of evidence showing that policies can with no evidence to the contrary.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:42 pm   Post subject: Point taken, Expert. :)  

This is the only thing I have found so far. And according to this, whether or not a policy can have a default beneficiary is on a policy to policy basis.





"In most instances, if the designated beneficiary does not survive the insured, then the proceeds become payable to the contingent beneficiary. If there is no surviving contingent beneficiary, payment would then be determined by the terms of the policy. Please read the applicable provisions of the policy. If the designated beneficiary survives the insured, but dies before the claim is made, the proceeds may be payable to the designated beneficiary's estate."

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:57 pm   Post subject: no beneficiary  

It seems pretty clear to me that unless your policy specifically states otherwise, your insurance proceeds will go to your estate if there is no beneficiary listed and still living. In fact, I can't find anything to the contrary.





Quote:
Beneficiary Clause

The main aim of life insurance is to transfer wealth to your heirs or to provide liquidity to your family. For that reason, you need to name a beneficiary who will receive the life insurance proceeds after your death. This beneficiary can be your spouse, children or relatives. You also can change your recipient's name any time during the term of the policy.



However, if you still have not nominated a beneficiary, then your family is going to be in some trouble. The insurance money will go to your estate and the probate fees needed to settle your estate can dig a big hole in your surviving family's liquid assets. (For related reading, see Update Your Beneficiaries, The Importance Of State And Contingency Planning and Getting Started On Your Estate Plan.)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:26 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
This is the only thing I have found so far. And according to this, whether or not a policy can have a default beneficiary is on a policy to policy basis.





"In most instances, if the designated beneficiary does not survive the insured, then the proceeds become payable to the contingent beneficiary. If there is no surviving contingent beneficiary, payment would then be determined by the terms of the policy. Please read the applicable provisions of the policy. If the designated beneficiary survives the insured, but dies before the claim is made, the proceeds may be payable to the designated beneficiary's estate."




Everybody seems to be in agreement with this except Gary. Gary believes that in the state of Florida the applicable terms of the policy are irrelevant when there is not a surviving beneficiary or contingent beneficiary.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:35 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
It seems pretty clear to me that unless your policy specifically states otherwise, your insurance proceeds will go to your estate if there is no beneficiary listed and still living. In fact, I can't find anything to the contrary.




There's a couple of issue here. 1) Many* policies will specifically state what happens if there isn't a living beneficiary or contingent beneficiary. 2)It doesn't make sense for a policy to go to the insured's estate if the insured is not also the owner of the policy. It makes much more sense for the policy to go to the owner of the policy if the owner is living or the owner's estate if dead. An insurance policy is not an asset of the insured. It is an asset of the owner.



Where did you get that beneficiary clause from that you posted?



*Quite frankly, I don't know if "many" is the majority of policies, most policies, or all policies.
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