by plb » Sun Dec 06, 2009 02:31 am
My insurance company judged me at fault in an auto accident on the statement of one witness who also was involved in the accident. The witnesses' statement has a sizable discrepancy in it that I feel they ignored. I thought the discrepancy was pretty obvious but my adjuster seemed surprised when I pointed it out to her . I believe the case would have been resolved in my favor had they done an accident reconstruction and examined the physical evidence. I've asked for a review to address this but how can I be sure they really do the reconstruction and don't just rubber stamp their previous conclusion?
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:28 am Post Subject:
The point of impacts, and the area in the intersection where the impact occured are both important in determining negligence. and kind of accident investigation one oh one :roll:
So where is this now? Have they already accepted liability and paid the other claims or are they getting back to you?
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:25 pm Post Subject: accident
Hi Lori, They determined I was principally at fault and I requested a review. That process is going on now.
I do not know if they have accepted liability. Is that a formal pronouncement or something that follows from saying your client is principally at fault?
They have not paid claims as far as I know,
Thanks
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:47 pm Post Subject:
I was principally at fault and I requested a review.
I don't understand what this means. Either you are 100% at fault or 50, 20 10 etc. Don't worry about making your posts short. You came here for help, I along with others would want you to include all availible information to help you with the subject you requested.
Was there a diagram of the loss location on the police report? If so, would you say it was prepared with some accuracy? What did the investigating officer put in his narrative? What is listed in the contributing circumstances section? Any witness statements? I am curious why your carrier noted you "prinipally at fault", if the points of impact were never determined.
Have you only spoken with the adjuster from your carrier? Adjuster from other driver's carrier(s)?
And lastly, you don't know if "they", your carrier has accepted liability, but they are telling you that you are at fault? That doesn't make sense.
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:53 pm Post Subject:
If they haven 't paid any of the claims I'd say they have not made a liability determination. Some carriers will always call their insured's and advise them of the determination, most though don't. So be sure you tell them you want to know immediately when they have determined liability.
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 03:08 pm Post Subject:
.
.
The accident involves 3 cars. I went through a green light at an intersection (traveling south) and was hit by the second car ( traveling west ) in the left rear quarter of my car. My car was then spun 90 degrees instantly, flipped over, and slid 30 feet on it's side in the same lane I was traveling in. The driver of the second car then hit the third car head on as it was stopped in the turn lane on the other side of the intersection. (My right side.)
The driver of the third car claims that before the crash she was stopped at the red light in her turn lane(facing east). So she establishes a red light for her and the guy that hit me. She then claims that as the light phased to green for her, I came through my light, which would , in her scenario, now be red for me.Then the crash occurred right in front of her, less than a second after the light change.
This is something I find puzzling ...
You're basically saying the Witness said the second car was traveling West approaching a "Red" Traffic Light that had just changed to "Green" as it entered the intersection.
Based on that information:
If the East - West lanes just went to 'Green' as the West bound car entered the intersection, that would indicate that just before that change, the North - South lanes had to changed from Green to Yellow, stayed Yellow for several seconds, and then changed to Red for several more seconds before the East - West traffic light would turn Green.
[ I could be wrong, and it wouldn't be the first time]
If what the driver of the third car said is correct........ then You ran the red light.
To me you would have had to not only saw your Green turn Yellow, and kept going... You would also have had to seen it turn Red at the end of the Yellow and kept going for there to be a collision.
No matter what anyone saw or thought they saw....... the timing of the lights is what it is. And the elapsed timing of that sequence is much much more than "less than a second"
She also said they accept the testimony of the 3rd driver as an independent witness because she has nothing to gain from favoring either party to the crash. I'm still scratching my head over that comment as I don't see how that makes everything this witness says true
I do agree with your above comment... One has to wonder.... _what_ about someone not having an potential financial gain makes their statement more accurate??
There are millions and millions of people out there making *clueless* statements. Geeeeeeeeesssssssss, every now and then I'm one of them. Not intentionally, but we _All_ make mistakes and have errors in judgment & observation abilities.
Off topic:
Important Notice:
Due to recent budget cuts, the stock market crash, and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.
We apologize for the inconvenience.
Sincerely, The Government
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 06:35 pm Post Subject: Accident
Hi Trench,
“principally at fault” was quoted from the letter I received from my carrier. That's hoe they described it. The same letter also said I had 30 days to request a review of the determination and I did. There was no percentage of fault assigned in that letter. I did not understand there was a distinction between assigning fault and accepting liability. Now that I do I will ask. The adjuster did say she was planning to approach the other party and see if they would settle for the policy limits. So does that mean they are accepting liability or is she just doing her job?
The police report is another story. All the information I received from the police report at this point I received from my adjuster. The accident happened in a city where it takes up to 3 months to generate a report. In my case it took 2 ½ months. I don't have the report myself because it was probably lost in the mail as we moved right after the accident from that city to another state. I was also away on business for 5 weeks during this period and did not realize I had no copy of it until I returned and collected my mail. I have requested another copy and I expect to have it shortly. When it arrives I will gladly answer your questions about it to the best of my ability.
What I can say is that it's been more than a month since the report came out and I have not been cited. I'm hopeful that means I won't be cited for the red light violation but I'm guessing that's not a certainty. There also are no witnesses who are independent of the accident. There were many people on the scene that day but sadly no one stayed around to offer up an outside version of the accident.
Perhaps I was too hasty in asserting my carrier had not determined the points of impact. I guess I don't know this for sure but I will confirm it when I speak with my carrier again. As I said earlier, that assumption was based on the fact that my adjuster could not tell me anything about the accident without referring to the police report and that my questions about the witness's statement seemed to surprise her.
I just assumed all witness statements were examined for validity against the physical evidence the accident presented. Isn't that what an investigation is?
It's funny you should ask about other adjusters. Early on I had fielded calls from the adjuster from the carrier of the guy who hit me asking me and my wife for a statement. This adjuster claimed she had no statement from her client or anyone else. My adjuster advised me not to give a statement to them and she told me she would have the other adjuster stop calling me.
I have not heard anything to date from the 3rd driver's insurance company but I'm not sure I should have. This driver did however give a statement to my adjuster about 5 weeks after the accident. My adjuster relayed the contents of that statement to me from memory in a phone call and that's when I first heard that I was being accused of running the red light. I pressed the adjuster for more information on the timing of when this witness said I crossed the line of the intersection and she reiterated she did not have the statement in front of her and said she would get back to me with that information. She assured me the company would vigorously investigate this new information. She never did get back to me and owing to a number of other factors we never really talked until after the police report arrived.
After the police report came out I received another letter from the second driver's company stating that they had concluded their investigation. They said ( and I'm paraphrasing here) their investigation indicates that damages occurred because driver # 1 (me) or driver # 2 (their client) ran the red light but because neither myself nor driver # 3 gave them a statement, they had no reason to not believe their client. They said if I provided them with a statement they may re-evaluate their decision.
Thanks again
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 07:07 pm Post Subject:
FK,
You said "If what the driver of the third car said is correct........ then You ran the red light. "
That is true if what she said is correct. I maintain it is not but I had not wanted to debate who is right or wrong.
I said that if you accept the 3rd drivers statement as true, you have to accept the corollaries.
I'll lay them out here with what the drivers say in their statements. I'm driver #1, the guy that hit me #2 and the witness #3.
Light timing N-S- 25 sec green, 5 second yellow, 60 sec red.
Light timing E-W- 55 sec green, 5 second yellow, 30 sec red.
#3 - says driver # 1 crossed red light line as her light phased to green.
That means that driver # 1 had a 5 second yellow light after his green expired then he crossed anintersection against a red light.
Driver # 1 says he had a green light the entire time, never a yellow or red.
It also means driver #2 had faced a 30 second red light
at the same time. Driver number two does not mention seeing a red light in his statement. Says his light was always green as well.
Circumstances indicate driver # 2 hit driver # 1 at a rate of speed inconsistent with slowing or stopping for a standing red light.
Would you conclude from these circumstances that the timing of #1 entering the intersection is correct given
the many contradictions in all the statements?
That's my issue,
Thanks,
Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 08:59 pm Post Subject:
geeeze..all this AND a limits issue? oh my... :shock:
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 03:23 am Post Subject:
Wow :shock: :roll: I am wondering what, if any information your adjuster gave to your carrier. Not much it would seem. There seemed to be a lot going on in your accident, and I can only wonder how busy I may have been in that situation. I probably am going to assume that this adjuster never spoke with the investigating officer (not that she had to), but she seems to be (based on your account) relying soley on the police report-which I might add she has copy of (maybe :lol: ) and you could ask her for it, that is if there was nothing to question. Furthermore, her investigation would have been able to determine who exactly was at fault. And she would tell you, I always do. She would have had to, unless instructed not, speak to all availible witnesses to get statements-written or recorded.
I just assumed all witness statements were examined for validity against the physical evidence the accident presented. Isn't that what an investigation is?
Yep, pretty much.
And for her to tell you not to speak to others (adjusters) is not her call.
Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 04:34 am Post Subject: Accident
Hi Trench, Thanks very much for your reply. Talking about this with you and other people here has been very helpful to me in determining a course of action,
Thanks again
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