by CodyCourtneyLove » Sun May 09, 2010 11:36 pm
I have been with my insurance company for 23 years, never had an accident, never late on a payment and always kept them abreast of modification and upgrades done to the car. With each modification and upgrades done to the vehicle, to improve on handling and safety, I asked and offered receipt of work done to see if an increase was needed to cover replacement or repair in case of an accident. At each renewal of my policy I also reminded them of the modifications and upgrades to see if their would be an increase and was told No, I was a preferred customer.Well I was involved in an accident that was not my fault and Public records show and state that the other driver was at fault and admitted to such, as did her insurance company. My insurance company wants to total out my car because the amount of the damage is more then what the book value for the car is. Even though with each renewal they told me they would fix my vehicle and get their money back from the other persons insurance company should I ever be in an accident not of my own fault. The total amount of upgrades and modification is a little over $9000.00 and to me was well worth the money, see it allowed us to avoid and survive an accident in which the other driver making an improper left hand turn tried to come through my wife passenger door in the rain on a wet slippery roadway. The other insurance company wants to settle and cover all damages to my vehicle. Damages to my vehicle after going over the medium which is curb high, appeared to be a broken oil pan and pump, and lower and upper left side mounting supports on quick investigation at the shop. Please tell me my rights in this matter as I would aspect the other insurance company of doing something like this and not my own. P.S. the other side told me, that it was their desire to fix my vehicle and pay for all damages. Would "Bad faith and Breach of Contract" apply as it appears my insurance company is disregarding my rights as a policyholder. The vehicle is a classic, it is a E34 BMW with a M50 motor made 8/91 in Germany.
Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 05:44 pm Post Subject:
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Max,
So if a vehicle was insured for its collector/other value at $70,000, but suffers a $40,000 loss, the $40,000 is the ACV and all the insured is entitled to. If repaired, and the next day the vehicle suffers a total loss, then the insured receives a check for $70,000.
What if a while after the policy took effedt the ACV of the collector/other value dropped to say $55,000.oo??
Would they still pay $70,000.oo
Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 06:40 pm Post Subject:
If it's a stated value policy and the item was insured for $70,000 and suffered a total loss then $70,000 would be paid regardless of anything else. Reason being, the insured is paying a premium for $70,000 in coverage. The insurance company can't collect a premium (in a stated value policy) for $70,000 when it would never be called on to pay $70,000.
But this is for a stated value policy. A policy could have a 1st party limit and still be subject to additional conditions such as ACV or Replacement Cost. That is, I've seen commercial auto policies that were ACV but also had 1st party limits (usually a policy with coverage symbols 8,9 (Hired/Non-Owned)).
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 03:52 am Post Subject:
So that there is no miss understanding, yes by law I just like you pay for insurance that is a given. By law I filed a claim with my insurance company. I was told that they were going to fix my car. Money was paid and I waited for my car to be fix, upon closer inspection after 99% of the job was done a Problem was found that require a second visit by the insurance company to further look over the damage done by the accident. It was then determine that my car now fell in the catagory of total lost. It was on this same day that I had receive a phone call by an Attorney for the other party telling me that they wanted to settle, as they had determine that the accident was their fault from statements made and from eye witnesses. I had no prior knowledge that later that day my car would be determine a total lost by my own insurance. I ownly directed the Attorney for the other party to my Attorney, and the next morning contacted my insurance company of the call I had received from the other parties Attorney to only find out that my Insurance company had totaled my vehicle. I ownly wanted my vehicle fixed. Could I have fixed my vehicle myself? YES and I had let it be known from the start, why pay so high because I can and the protection you spoke of! The kids are grown and each have their Doctorates and family. As a child I watched and helped my Grandfather work on the three Model T's he owned and restored. I enjoyed working on older and newer cars as a hobby and love to restore them to there former glory. I ownly wanted my car fixed. Had I known the outcome, who do you really think I would have been dealing with from the door. I don't like unfinish project, never had and I guess I never will. See this was my first time, ask me to break a car down and put it back together we did in Grad school as a joke to one of the Professors, ask me to break down a Super Computer or make a better one, I do that for the Government. Ask me to improve on something, I ask you for paper and pen, a pencil is unacceptable. Is this subject over my head, why did I asked you. Fact, no matter how many books I may read, it is experience that helps to decide the outcome, do we not agree. I can know the best Lawyers, but its the Lawyer who knows the Judge that WINS! As I stated earlier, this is a learning curve for me and it is refreshing, I asked the question here to learn and get some advise, yes I could have gotten an answer from an egg head or a Yes man, but I wanted to here, misspelled, the truth in an open forum. I am learning and have learned, but know this fact to be true, there is to be a vote on changes on, No in this, there will be a change! See if the average person doing as I stated and wanting the same results, receive this type of treatment at the hands of there own, the legal argument would be and is who is the enemy? Should he or she not get and receive what they were led to believe, how about I put this on the floor to the egg heads and yes man, and have them know that I will be watching looking to see if there is a loophole that needs to be closed.
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 04:03 am Post Subject:
Are we talking in code? Most of that made no sense whatsoever.
So it seems that the issues is you want your vehicle repaired and the insurance company is stating it's a total loss. Most states have laws they carriers need to follow that tell them when they need to consider a vehicle a total loss. You may want to ask your carrier is this is the situation in your case. If so, it's not the insurance companies choice, it's state law. Most carriers will also consider a vehicle to be a total loss when the cost to repair it is about 80% of it's value. This is because with 80% damage, it's almost a given that there is going to be additional damage which was not seem at first.
In your case it seems as if the cost to repair was less then 80% but then something big was found at it's over that percentage. Usually when they have already started work either state laws apply or the cost to repair is more then 100% of the vehicle's value.
You carrier is going to follow states laws and they are not going to spend more repairing your vehicle then it's value... as mentioned, this is outlined in your policy.
As far as everything else in your post... like I said, it was pretty difficult to understand.
Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 04:10 pm Post Subject:
CodyCourtneyLove . . .
I have to agree with tcope, your posts are rambling and not on point. Your question nearly disappears among the irrelevant information about children with doctorates, et al.
You still seem to believe that because you have paid some excessive amount of premium over the years, and have never had a claim until now, that you are somehow entitled to something more than what your insurance contract states. YOU ARE NOT!
Insurance, as I have tried to explain as simply as possible, is ALEATORY -- there is an implicit understanding that there will most likely be an UNEQUAL GIVING AND RECEIVING between the two parties, the INSURER and the INSURED. We never know who is going to be on the short end of the equation, but it is the rare exception that after 5, 10, 20, or more years of paying premiums, in any form of insurance, that the two sides will have contributed equal shares.
That your vehicle required additional repairs unknown to all at the time initial restoration work commenced is not uncommon. When damaged body panels are removed, when broken interior plastic parts are removed, when visibly broken mechanical parts are removed, frequently other concealed damage will now be exposed and will require a revisit by the adjuster.
Although the initial agreement was to begin repairs, if your contract is like the majority of others, there will be language describing the insurer's responsibility to you concerning hidden damage and its effect on the claim.
As tcope has alluded to, there are state laws that govern what is required to "total" a vehicle. Those laws will apply to both your insurance company and that of the at-fault party. So if your insurance company has determined that the now-known damage to the vehicle qualifies it for salvage, the same will be true of the other party's responsibility to you.
The concept of indemnity, as it applies in your instance, would simply state: You were enjoying driving around town in a vehicle built in 1991 (make/model is essentially unimportant), and now you won't be able to due to the fault of a third party. You are entitled to the value of the vehicle -- nearly 20 years old -- with reasonable depreciation for age, mileage, and physical condition prior to the loss, or to a comparable vehicle.
So, perhaps you can press the third party to find you a 1991 BMW 535i E34 with M50 engine. But they don't have to go to Germany to look for one, and if there isn't one for sale within a reasonable proximity to you, they will be permitted to make you a cash offer as compensation (indemnification).
FYI -- on the autotrader.com website, there are three such vehicles for sale in the US, with pricetags of $6050 (black w/ 263,000 miles), $1500 (green w/ 212,000 miles, and $3,000 (burgundy w/ 257,000 miles), so take your pick and suggest one of them to the other party's attorney.
But don't expect them to agree to purchase the $6000 vehicle if yours is determined to be valued at $2000 prior to the loss.
The total amount of upgrades and modification is a little over $9000.00 and to me was well worth the money
The "upgrades and modification" may have been well worth the money to you, but without an agreement to the same extent from your insurance company, it is meaningless.
That you consider the vehicle a "classic" also confers no special privilege to you. If the vehicle was worth considerably more than another like it, you needed to obtain the "stated value" contract that has been discussed above.
To many of us on the road, a vehicle is just a box on wheels that gets us from Point A to Point B. In rush hour traffic here in the Los Angeles/Orange/San Bernardino/Riverside County region (usually starts at about 4:00am and ends around 3:55am the next day), my Buick Rendezvous gets me there in the same time that it takes a Lamborghini Countach. But I don't have to worry about a rock tossed in my direction by the vehicle in front of me cracking a $3500 windshield or scratching a $15,000 paint job, and neither does my insurer.
Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 06:32 pm Post Subject:
So what ended up happening to your car? You said it was 99% finished when additional work was discovered. Although rare at that point an insurer would total the vehicle (because of the work already completed) they would have allowed for the work to be completed.
Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 02:39 pm Post Subject:
Fred, you're right as far as a private passenger auto and a stated amount policy (the ones I've handled and read)...in fact just had two last week...
A stated amount of say 10k is the MOST that will be paid on a total loss on that policy...if the ACV is determined to be 5k, then that's what's paid...now let's not confuse a stated amount with a 'speciality' car stated amount policy either...(I think we've talked about this before and yours is simple stated amount policy)...further more..most stated amount policys will in addition say something like...'if the ACV of the vehicle is less than 80/90/70% (whatever the policy says) of the stated amount, the loss payment will be affected."
Example had these two claims just last week...young man mistakenly chose a stated amount policy on his brand new truck for 25k...the actual acv of the truck was closer to 31k...his policy said '90%'...so unfortunately his truck was only insured for like 84% of the acv..which 'should've' resulted in the loss/repair payment being 84% of the total cost of repair (this vehicle did not total)...but I went to bat and threw a giant fit, re: this kid had NO idea what he was doing, bought the policy on line, blah blah, got it changed back so I could pay him the total cost of repair, they 'fixed' his policy to an ACV policy (which it should've been anyway)...
claim #2 99f250 insured for a stated amount of 10k...well this truck was junk, and had lived a VERY hard life, and the ACV was 5k...(in truth he'd have been lucky to get 1k for this heap)....truck totaled he got 5k.
===
I'm not even going to try to unscramble the OP's question, except to say this...I've (unfortunately), had maybe two or three claims in my career that totaled after nearly all of the repairs were completed...All of these were first party so I don't know if anything different could've/would've happened had they been third party...one in particular STILL sticks in my craw, and this is how it was handled...VW hard hit...repaired within oh, 1k or better of a total...so a 'non-issue' guy picks up the vehicle drives it a couple of weeks and the dash lights (and other things) go wacky...take it to VW, and we've got some 'issues' that are clearly accident related...bing, bang, boom, VW needs 2k to fix it...remember this car was back in his drive way all body/suspension/steering/frame work done...so I was probably too busy, and ok'd the work...someone reviewed it after it was back to the owner (again after the dealership did their 2k work). Guess what? Mama Lori messed up...had to call this guy and say, 'ok, I know your car is fixed, and you have it back, but 'technically' that last supp totaled it..you have two options, you can keep it and we're fine, or do you want to have it totaled?' well guess what he chose...yep, total it lady! ............. NOT my finest hour.. :roll:
So my rambling point is...in most states when the 'numbers' hit, the vehicle totals regardless of the amount of repair(s) that have already been completed by the time this final nail in the coffin of the car is discovered..
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 05:20 pm Post Subject:
Did you pay for extra coverage to cover the additions to the car?
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 03:53 pm Post Subject:
Cody Courtney Love, did you pay for stated amount coverage. I mean, did you give the insurance company extra money each month believing that you would get paid the "stated amount" if you suffered a total loss? Were you paid ACV instead?
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 05:06 am Post Subject:
DB . . . you're asking a question in response to a post that is 6 months old. They never came back at the time, what makes you think they'll come back now?
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