Cash pay-out

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:23 am   Post subject: Cash pay-out  

I'll try to make this as short as possible.



I'm the victim of a parking lot rear end accident. The guy who hit me has admitted all liability. I've gotten an estimate at a shop of my choosing. His insurance company (AAA) sent out to my house an independent appraiser. She did her report but failed to include pictures of the most expensive damage (There's a difference of $500.00 comparing her report and the body shop that I took my car to). After I received the appraisers estimate I called AAA and they said that if I wanted a cash pay-out I would be the one responsible for getting the proof that the part the appraiser 'conveniently' left out was really damaged. This would be at MY expense. AAA, says that my bumper has to be completely dismantled to prove this. I say, BULL!!!



U see, the problem is, it's my car that got hit. If the other party has admitted all liability I shouldn't have to pay a dime, not to mention that it's none of AAA's business if I get the car fixed or not. Am I right?



BTW, Totaling the car out is not an option seeing as though it's worth much more than the damage caused. This is not in dispute.



I live in California.



Thanx in advance.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:46 am   Post subject:   

If the car is taken in to be repaired and they find additional damage that could not be seen, or was not included in the adjuster's estimate, the shop can submit a supplemental claim. At that point, Triple A would have to send an adjuster out once the car is torn down to see the additional damages.



They may have mentioned the additional cost since some body shops will charge a tear-down charge if they are not going to be the shop to repair the vehicle.



If the difference in the estimates is only $500, I'd go ahead and have a shop start working on it and let them negotiate the supplement with the insurance carrier. You may also want to inform the shop of what is going on.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:51 am   Post subject:   

Your best bet is to take it to a shop and have the shop go over the damages with the apprasier.



I can't speak as to if it can be known the part is damaged or not... this can only be told by viewing the damages. We discussed this in another post and it was asked if certain carriers did this on purpose. I think some carriers are more apt not to write up parts they don't _know_ are damaged but also I think those same carriers won't have a problem paying for that damage once it's confirmed that it is damaged.



Bottom line, law says you have the duty to prove your loss. I'm betting if a good repair center entered into a discussion with the apprasier that some agreement could be found.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:05 am   Post subject:   

Thanx for your responses. But let me make myself very clear. I want a cash pay-out. It's AAA who says that if pay out then I have to pay the cost out of my own pocket for the 'tear-down' to see if the bumper bar is actually in need of replacement. The body shop that I took it to didn't have to take anything apart to see that that's what I need. Haven't I already proved the damage to my car by taking it to a body shop of my choosing and that same shop writing me an estimate?



I find this to be scandalous. Isn't it the responsibility of AAA to pay for the 'tear-down'? Why should I have to pay for anything. I'm not the one at fault here.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:10 am   Post subject:   

It has not been proven... shops _guess_ at repaired _all the time_! What do they care if they are wrong? They just get paid more money. So they can "afford" to just guess at what needs to be repaired. Trust me... they do it _all the time_.



(I'm not saying the part does not need to be replaced, just that the fact that a shop wrote it down is not proof).

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:21 am   Post subject:   

Understood. but what I don't get is why AAA is telling me that I'm the one who has to pay for the tear-down. Something is fishy there. I'm the victim.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:33 am   Post subject:   

When you have a vehicle in a shop for 'repair' there is no tear down fee...most shops however will not take off that bumper cover and put it back on (since you are not repairing it) for free...



The appraiser CANNOT pay for damages that they cannot see...It sounds like (from your post) the shop did not see the rebar either! and as tcope said just assumes it will need replaced, and maybe it does! But you wouldn't pay out of your own pocket to replace a part you couldn't see was damaged either, in fact once it's torn down there might be additional damage other than the absorber and rebar...maybe the rear body panel is pushed in as well...or and this is probably something you should be concerned about...when that bumper cover is off of your vehicle maybe there is no other damage, have you thought of that? maybe all that is damaged is the cover (which I assume is what the appraiser wrote) you have a choice to make...shop around and ask a few shops hey, what would you charge me to remove my bumper cover for inspection and put it back on...? some shops will charge you book rate whatever it pays for you particular car (if you want to give me year make model and if it's rear cover I'll look it up for you)) some may only charge you fifty bucks....how confident are you there is additional damage? If it were me and I knew there was damage under there I'd pay it...



It's up to you to prove your damage, and up to them (the carrier) to pay for the damage...not the tear down.....UNTIL they know there is damage, now if there IS IN FACT additional damage found once the cover is off, they would owe for that tear down as well as the additional damage.



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 11:54 am   Post subject:   

Thanx, Lori. That's what I needed to know. If I take it to a shop and tell them that AAA needs proof that my bumper reinforcement bar is bent or not, am I right in assuming that they'll know that AAA is going to pay for the tear-down?



Also, I'm starting to learn something about depreciated value. Can U comment on the subject?



I own a 1984 Toyota Celica GT in EXCELLENT condition with 132k. I just bought it on Febr.3rd. Someone took very good care of this care. Even AAA's appraiser documented it as such. MOF, I've already registered it for our local auto-rama show on the 4th of July as a stock entry.



Thanx again.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:40 pm   Post subject:   

Quote:
am I right in assuming that they'll know that AAA is going to pay for the tear-down?
not necessarily...make sure you are upfront with the shop and adjuster both, that you have no plans to repair this vehicle...then find out from AAA the date and time they can reinspect it after you have it torn down...also explain to the adjuster that 'if' there is damage to this rebar, they WILL be paying the shop directly for the tear down and the additional damage to you for you vehicle....get that all laid out prior..ok? also another reason to make sure the shop understands you aren't fixing it is so they are more careful in the removal of the cover (so they can get it back on the vehicle).....

Quote:
Also, I'm starting to learn something about depreciated value. Can U comment on the subject
I think what you may be talking about is diminished value...honestly if you don't repair it then you don't have a claim, and on your vehicle there would be none (IMO)...also not all carriers will consider diminished value, many states don't require it...



I understand that it's in great condition...but what I don't understand is if so...and you plan to show it in a street show why on earth are you not repairing it? Is it just a scratch on the cover or what? My nada program only goes back to 1989...so an additional five years old even in excellent conditon, I doubt it would 'book' at much more than 1500-2000.00....



It's moot anyway, because you arent' repairing it (diminished value)....


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:50 pm   Post subject:   

I looked up the labor time r&i on your vehicles rear cover, ( r&i means 'remove and install) the cover pays .5 (one half an hour) labor, however they may charge you to O/H (overhaul) the entire bumper assy, WHICH THEY SHOULD NOT DO! that pays 1.3 hrs...they should only be charging you to r&i (remove and install) the rear cover only which (as I said) pays .5, also shows me (duh) the rebar, absorber, and retainers are discontinued by the manufactor..doesn't mean they can't be found, and I would expect to see that on this year vehicle...



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:30 pm   Post subject:   

Lori,



There is a problem with your Book time of .5 (one half of an hour -- thirty minuets).



Book times are based on New Undamaged Automobiles.



The auto in question is an 1984. California or not, a 24 year old auto is going to have Rusty fasteners, which could easily double or triple the labor costs.



What about Stall time waiting for the appraiser to show?? And a few other items that could come into play.



Your throwing out a book time on an old car like that could cause a consumer to unjustly suspect/accuse an legitimate labor bill for work performed as being a Rip-off or Scam.??



I'm sure it was unintentional, but still not a nice thing to happen.





FK,

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:55 pm   Post subject:   

.

.



Quote:
whatsyurprob,



Posted: 27 Mar 2008 11:54 Post subject: Cash out




---------------



whatsyurprob,





The Article below may help answer many of your questions.



NOTE... Laws differ State to State, and Laws Change.!! Consult an attorney in your area versed in Third Party Claims.



FK,



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:51 pm   Post subject:   

I won't get into how repair times are determined as I think we all know an average, qualified, repair person in a shop can easily make the repairs in the time allowed. With that said, what if a shop can repair the vehicle in much less time then allowed? Is the extra money paid refunded to the owner of the vehicle? Nope. Are repairs done in less time 99.99% of the time? Yup! The tools in a shop are some of the best. They deal with rusted parts all of the time. They really pose little problems. If they do, and the repair person needs a little extra time, they still almost never go over the time allowed. It's one of those trade offs on how the system is set up... payments are not reduced when the job is done quickly so they are not decreased when (and it almost never happens) when the job takes a little longer.



OP, yes the insurance company would pay for the tear down if the part is learned to be damaged but this might not be as you expect. They will pay for the tear down only in that they will pay for the part and the cost to replace it, which includes taking off the bumper cover and the part itself. So the payment will be in the form of a higher appraisal, to include the part in question.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:39 pm   Post subject: Good grief Charly Brown  

Quote:
I won't get into how repair times are determined as I think we all know an average, qualified, repair person in a shop can easily make the repairs in the time allowed. With that said, what if a shop can repair the vehicle in much less time then allowed? Is the extra money paid refunded to the owner of the vehicle? Nope. Are repairs done in less time 99.99% of the time? Yup! The tools in a shop are some of the best. They deal with rusted parts all of the time. They really pose little problems. If they do, and the repair person needs a little extra time, they still almost never go over the time allowed. It's one of those trade offs on how the system is set up... payments are not reduced when the job is done quickly so they are not decreased when (and it almost never happens) when the job takes a little longer.


Here we go again!



Before there were manuals or labor guides, the time for repairing and replacing was written in dollars and cents. The cost of repair was determined by the professional repairing the damage based on the amount in dollars that were required for the value of the service. In addition for placing a value on that service, the repairer accepted the liability for the procedure.



Insurers like to micro manage tenths of an hours so they can control costs. You basically have three data providers and in many instances, the times for identical operations will be inconsistent. There should be no reason for these inconsistencies with exception that the data providers use decreases in labor allowances to sell their products to insurers as one that can be proven to save insurers money.



In order for insurers to gain control of the collision industry, they began to rely on labor manuals with supposed time study guides. These guides were compromised with insurance company imput. Shops did not need guides other than parts price guides. Insurers could not dispute labor unless they could look to a guide for a SUGGESTED LABOR TIME. Insurers have so manipulated the guides and the companies that produce the guides have marketed them solely to the insurance industry. The guides or now as they are referred to "data providers" have become the bible of the insurance industry. When an insurer chooses to misuse the guide by using criteria that is not suggested in the procedural pages, it is okay for them to do so apparently. As an example, there is no such thing as blend within a panel in the data guides, but there are suggested allowances for denibbing and buffing clear, but insurers do not believe this is necessary and both are routinely denied by insurers.



Whats yur problem, see if you can get your repair shop to sign an affidavit stating that based on his professional expertise he has determined that rebar is damaged.



I have a customer who is having this same issue with a vehicle that was rear ended. The at fault party struck the rear of the car lifting it in the air and damaging the gas tank. I prepared a complete thorough examination of the damage including some disassembly. The customer gladly paid my fee for the assessment and partial disassembly. Most of the damage could be seen by the naked eye and documented with a digital camera.



Now the at fault insurer says the shop analysis of damage and pictures are not sufficient as they have to see the damage with their own eyes and document it. This is ludicrous to say the least. The customer does not intend to repair the vehicle but to sell it as is and they are entitled to all damages regardless of whether they repair them or not. Apparently proof to insurers only counts if they can control the scope of the examination of damage. Just remember that (whatsyurprob) are not bound by the terms and conditions of a policy of insurance that you are not contracted to. You are owed damages based on the negligence of their insured and tort law is the basis for remedy, not the at fault party's coverage.



The vehicle owner's attorney at my suggestion told the insurer to pay for a towing of the vehicle to their preferred shop and pay for a dissassembly and then place the damage parts back on the car if they did not want to accept an experts analysis and documentation. This is no different than when an insurer demands before settlement that an injured person be examined by their expert doctor. The damaged party is not required to pay for the at fault party's expert opinion, use of their lab or office and equipment. It should be no different when settling issues on property damage. This is just another tactic used by an insurer to attempt to deny what is owed to the damaged party, in my opinion.



You may want to consult with an attorney in your state or the bar association. They will be able to inform you whether you can collect for any expenses required to prove your claim.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 6:41 pm   Post subject:   

.

.



tcope,



It would appear that your comment on repair Time was based on DRP shops that are contracted to accept the times and prices specified on insurer estimates. (or risk being removed from the DRP list) That is very bogus information and we both know it.



Below is a simple repair situation that I had post on several Collision Repair discussion boards back in 2005. I received many responses of which NOT one person that actually does this work said it was possible to be done in the time listed.



If you would, please Print this out and while you are at your local shops show it to their Painter to read and ask them for an Honest "off the record" answer. Then let us all know how many say they can and how many can't.



Looking forward to your findings.



FK,

_____________________________



Time to Blend a Door according to Motor est. guide. 2005



03 Dodge full size pickup:



DOOR ... Refinish outside panel...... 2.8 -50% for blend panel (??).... becomes 1.4



FROM THE P-PAGES [word for word]



COLOR BLEND (adjacent panels)



INCLUDED:

Clean component (solvent/detergent wash)

Initial wet-sand

Clean again in preparation for material application

Mask adjacent panels (3ft. perimeter)

Bonding/adhesive coat application

Blend coat application

Clear coat application (full blend panel)

Remove masking



(This same time also applies to an 1994 full size Dodge pickup)



Note: keep in mind that an blend panel is not New out of the Box, (it can't be) its a

dirty used door attached to the automobile anywhere from a few days to 10 years ago.



Can anyone actually do all of this in 1.4 hours?



Keep in mind that a prepper's time is also part of the 1.4.

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