by Emp » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:53 pm
Hello,
I've just found this forum and I must say that there certainly is a wealth of information here. I hope that I'll be able to contribute as much as I'm learning.
I've used the search function and so far I've not found an adequate answer to my question.
Here's the scenario:
I was hit from behind in my '03 BMW while sitting stopped in traffic. The negligent party is at fault as per the police report. He's also uninsured. That means that my claim is filed with my insurance company (USAA) as an Uninsired Motorist Claim.
Since I'm pretty new in the local BMW community, I've asked the car club members to recommend a repair shop for my baby. As is my right, I selected a shop based on enthusiast testimonials and a look at some of their work, then took my car in to get an estimate.
The estimate came back just over $10K to fix the rear quarterpanel, trunk, bumper, trim, etc. Then the USAA adjuster took a look at the car and came back with a quote just under $7k to fix it. The discrepancy, according to USAA, is that the shop parts prices are higher than USAA thinks they should be and the labor is more expensive than they're willing to pay. This sounds like complete nonsense to me; if the labor and parts at this shop were far more expensive than any other shop, how would they stay in business? I have just received both quotes in writing so I'll be going over them as soon as I can. One interesting thing of note is that there are 11 fewer line items on the USAA quote versus the body shop quote. Another difference is that the shop wants to charge me for labor tax, and USAA hasn't included that (or it doesn't appear to at this time) on their quote.
I don't really know how to proceed from here. I would like my car to be fixed at this shop due to the quality of work they do, but I don't really think that I should be paying 1/3 of the cost to do so, when the accident was through no fault of my own.
Does anyone have any advice as to how to go about getting my insurance company to pony up the cash to fix my car to my satisfaction? Failing that, and ideas as to how I should proceed with this?
Thanks in advance.
Emp
I've just found this forum and I must say that there certainly is a wealth of information here. I hope that I'll be able to contribute as much as I'm learning.
I've used the search function and so far I've not found an adequate answer to my question.
Here's the scenario:
I was hit from behind in my '03 BMW while sitting stopped in traffic. The negligent party is at fault as per the police report. He's also uninsured. That means that my claim is filed with my insurance company (USAA) as an Uninsired Motorist Claim.
Since I'm pretty new in the local BMW community, I've asked the car club members to recommend a repair shop for my baby. As is my right, I selected a shop based on enthusiast testimonials and a look at some of their work, then took my car in to get an estimate.
The estimate came back just over $10K to fix the rear quarterpanel, trunk, bumper, trim, etc. Then the USAA adjuster took a look at the car and came back with a quote just under $7k to fix it. The discrepancy, according to USAA, is that the shop parts prices are higher than USAA thinks they should be and the labor is more expensive than they're willing to pay. This sounds like complete nonsense to me; if the labor and parts at this shop were far more expensive than any other shop, how would they stay in business? I have just received both quotes in writing so I'll be going over them as soon as I can. One interesting thing of note is that there are 11 fewer line items on the USAA quote versus the body shop quote. Another difference is that the shop wants to charge me for labor tax, and USAA hasn't included that (or it doesn't appear to at this time) on their quote.
I don't really know how to proceed from here. I would like my car to be fixed at this shop due to the quality of work they do, but I don't really think that I should be paying 1/3 of the cost to do so, when the accident was through no fault of my own.
Does anyone have any advice as to how to go about getting my insurance company to pony up the cash to fix my car to my satisfaction? Failing that, and ideas as to how I should proceed with this?
Thanks in advance.
Emp
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 06:04 am Post Subject:
I would tend to agree with that, thought I think in umpteen years I've only seen 1 or 2 issues come up with this. When it did, the insured was referred back to the shop. Never heard about it again so I'm guessing the shop took care of the problem. I think if pressed, the insurance company would address the issue but bottom line, they are going to ask the shop to handle the problem and if the problem still exists, they will probably "ask" the shop to address and take care of the problem. Again, I've never really heard of warranty issues on the repairs.
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:14 am Post Subject:
I can shed some light on the warranty stuff, for my company and area anyway..in fact I paid one just yesterday....I'll explain that then a couple others that I have personal knowledge of...
Young girl gets into a wreck in columbia (or jeff city I can't remember) vehicle is non-driveable she lives in Kansas city, she has the vehicle repaired at a drp shop for her company in columbia...she calls when she gets back to town, on the way home she notices a funny 'noise' says no driveablity problem a noise...I'm brought into the claim because she lives/works close to one of the drp shops I handle...I have her explain everything to me (in fact I go see the car because she can't drop it off till monday)...she brings vehicle to shop monday...let me say here that this is a first party claim she does not have rental on her policy...she drops it off late monday...tuesday morning we look at it, a new strut (oem) was put on this vehicle along with other susp/steering parts....the new oem strut bolt was either packaged wrong or a 'fluke' at any rate the bolt dropped down thur the plate...soon as I see this I call and set up a rental for her (because it's going to be a warranty issue, not a collision coverage issue therefore we will provide a rental)...we replace the seal and plate, the strut was undamaged miraculously so we could re-use it, while we were test driving it I hear the hub and bearing making noise...I replaced that as well (it was not replaced on the original est) this was additional damage not warranty issue...we of course mt'd balanced, and did a frt wheel alignement, vehicle ready late last night I (on behalf of the company) pay all costs..including rental...this particular incident the shop didn't do anything wrong the strut failed, so we won't be going to the orginally repairing shop for any reimbursement....
Another example...an insured gets their vehicle repaired at a drp shop....they call after delivery and the shop did a crappy job refinishing...there is dirt in the paint, runs in the clear etc....first always attempt to get it back to the original repairing shop and let them handle their own mistake, and pay for the rental while doing so..i will reinspect it with the shop prior to notifying the owner that their vehicle is ready again....if for whatever reason the owner doesn't want to return to that shop will go to another drp if they agree, if not then any other shop, i will reinspect the complaint, i will discuss how to fix it with the new shop what it is going to take to fix this..i will of course request that the offending shop reinspect it with us....if the offending shop (for lack of a better phrase), wants to negotiate and pay that shop themselves then fine, offending shop still has to pay the rental if the owner requests one...if they don't or can't pay it, then we will pay it then expect re-payment from the offending shop...if they refuse for whatever reason, (although I can't think of one, if they did a crappy job they did a crappy job, and need to be held responsible for it, drp or not)...then we pay it under warranty then subr the shop...most of the time of course the repairing shop will as a courtesy to a brother shop do it at a reduced rate, (whether you want to admit it or not all people make mistakes and a mistake gets out of the shop once in a while even in the best shops)....
Last example...an vehicle is repaired at a drp shop, after receiving the vehicle back the owner says that the a/m headlamp just doesn't appear to fit right, or the bumper cover whatever...we will request it go back to the original shop, i will inspect it (hopefully with the owner present) if i agree then i will ask the shop to order a new oem part, and let the owner and me know when it is in...when the vehicle is back in the shop I will put the owner in a rental pay the shop the difference in parts price and the labor to do it again under the warranty...
It does happen, not a lot but I'd say 5-10% most of the time, it is a little thing...now there are a few horror stories too where a crappy shop snuck thru and got on the program, totally did a terrible job, the shop was immediately removed from the program, vehicle was repaired, (expensively), and the 'bad' shop was asked for repayment, if they refuse a suit if (rightfully) filed...
Dave, re: the labor prices, could be and I don't doubt it, the OP needs to find out what critera was used to determine this prevailing rate, also a call to the DOI to ask them their rule regarding the same, then do the survey themselves based on that critera....
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 02:56 pm Post Subject: It is my understanding
that USAA can elect to repair the vehicle themselves, but in doing so they would have to assume liability for the repairs. If they choose not do this, then shouldn't the vehicle owner take it to a repair shop, get it repaired, and have USAA pay the entire bill less the deductible. If the vehicle owner asked for the USAA adjuster to put in writing that the shop she chose charges too much, and that they chose a shop that would do it for less, then it seems she would have a real assurance. What I see happening right now is "bobbing and weaving". Lori, I don't think a good shop would ever have a customer complain about a repair, and never to the point where an insurer would have to make the shop take care of them.
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 05:19 pm Post Subject:
Most insurance companies will try to steer you to a DRP shop not only to save money on the repair costs and dictate how the repairs are to be made and what parts to use but the bigger issue is that the insurance company has the shop sign a hold harmless agreement embedded into the DRP contract. They put all liability onto the shop and assume none. If there is an problem you can try and sue the shop but they can easily go under and you have no recourse. Most shops garagekeepers legal liability policy will not honor the HHA and the shop would actually have to place the insurance company on the shops policy as an additional insured. So the shop may have $1,000,000 of general liability coverage on paper but see what happens when a claim arises.
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 06:38 pm Post Subject:
USAA can elect to repair the vehicle themselves, but in doing so they would have to assume liability for the repairs.
You mean if they have a DRP and they warrant their DRP's Dave? Yes, but I haven't seen anything in this thread about USAA's drp's or shop recommendations (course I sure could've missed it)...All I saw was the adjuster talking about prevailing rates...not a shop in particular...but yes you are correct, 'if' their drp program (if they have one) warrants the work..If they choose not do this, then shouldn't the vehicle owner take it to a repair shop, get it repaired, and have USAA pay the entire bill less the deductible
This would be very risky...of course all policys give the right to inspect, estimate, yada yada...so anything that isn't on the original estimate that pops up during the repair (and we all know that happens alot)...then the OP would be out of luck...and we still have the labor rate issue...I think the OP would be out a lot of money for a long long time if he trys going that route...If the vehicle owner asked for the USAA adjuster to put in writing that the shop she chose charges too much, and that they chose a shop that would do it for less, then it seems she would have a real assurance. What I see happening right now is "bobbing and weaving".
Yeah I agree...if the OP called three or four shops and their rate was 52ish, the shop where the vehicle is ..... is still high but the gap isn't as wide as the adjuster stated...I want that survey, or atleast the critera...I think the OP's best bet to start with is to contact the DOI and find out their definition of prevailing rate....and go from there...I think this can be ironed out pretty quickly that way...Lori, I don't think a good shop would ever have a customer complain about a repair, and never to the point where an insurer would have to make the shop take care of them.
I can't tell Dave if you're being funny or not... :? There's a big difference in complaints and justifiable complaints...there are unreasonable people out there and there are also people with unreasonable expectations...it happens some times, when I (the insurer) have to get involved, in both DRP and non-DRP shops...most of the time, it's just a question of the three of us at the side of the car...discussing an issue then coming to a mutal agreement...there are those rare occassions though when things happen or can take a bad nose dive...the majority (honestly) of the bad ones are NOT drp shops...but when I'm involved in a claim repairing a vehicle if the owner is slighted or 'thinks' they are, then I get involved, until some sort of solution can be obtained....They put all liability onto the shop and assume none
Did you read any of the examples that I posted? This is simply NOT true....So the shop may have $1,000,000 of general liability coverage on paper but see what happens when a claim arises.
That has zero to do with drp's...there is no policy I've ever seen (and I worked plenty of garage keepers claims in my day) that will insure the shop for crappy work...drp or not...if a shop (or any business) does a crappy job then they owe to make it right...surely we all agree on that point....not the ins. company (drp or not)..certainly not the policy on the shop, and most certainly not the owner...would you expect the company that has the drp contract to warrant (lets say) fish eyes, dirt and clear runs? Of course not!Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 07:52 pm Post Subject: I was not referring
to just drp's. I can't seem to post the link here, but I was wondering if you would mind reading an article that Patrick Mcguire wrote in Bodyshop business called "Keep this job" and sharing your thoughts on it. There is another one called "Every claim is not the same" that I have found interesting as well. As you have said, there could be all kinds of things going on with the op here, but I think my question comes from what I read in this article.
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 08:32 pm Post Subject:
Most insurance companies will try to steer you to a DRP shop not only to save money on the repair costs and dictate how the repairs are to be made and what parts to use but the bigger issue is that the insurance company has the shop sign a hold harmless agreement embedded into the DRP contract.
As do all companies that have business relationships with another. I handle a _lot_ of contractor claims and it's done on 99.999999% of all jobs.They put all liability onto the shop and assume none. If there is an problem you can try and sue the shop but they can easily go under and you have no recourse. Most shops garagekeepers legal liability policy will not honor the HHA and the shop would actually have to place the insurance company on the shops policy as an additional insured. So the shop may have $1,000,000 of general liability coverage on paper but see what happens when a claim arises.
In the real world it should work like that but it does not. The vehicle owner _still_ has a valid complaint against the insurance company. When that claim/complaint is filed against the insurance company, the carrier will _attempt_ to hold the shop accountable but the contract would not cover _everything_... only the shops actions (and well it should!). So in the real world the vehicle owner has a valid complaint against the shop _and_ USAA. USAA cannot simply step aside under the terms of the contract as the vehicle owner is a not a party to the contract. Also, in the real world it's next to impossible to get someone to accept tender of a claim under the terms of a contract. They just don't want to do it. I have about 5 claims right now that I'm offering a defense to an insured when the contract they have with a 3rd party contains an indemnification and hold harmless agreement (plus, some states don't recognize a hold harmless agreement anyway).So again, the vehicle owner _CAN_ hold USAA responsible... it does not matter what the DRP contract states.
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 08:44 pm Post Subject:
Sure Dave, I love to read the articles, I'll try and find them with the info you have provided.
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 09:01 pm Post Subject:
After starting the 'keep this job' article I realized I had already read it...haven't got to the other one yet...I see where you got your question...What it comes down to...(atleast the company I work for and area)...is this...if the shop does a bad job, leave all a/m parts out of this, let's say there is no question about the repair estimate, everyone agrees it was written to repair correctly....now if the shop screws up something does a bad job...then the shop is on the hook...I think we all would agree that is a no brainer, whether you're a body shop or beauty shop...right? If the shop let's say goes out of business and a year down the road the owner has an issue (or the examples I provided)...then the insurance carrier will warrant that rework...and pay to fix it....and I further agree that a drp shop if the carriers warrant the work...are responsible to a degree and are certainly warranting that shops work...if there is an issue the carrier jumps in handles it, then if circumstances warrant it return to the shop if there is a workmenship issue on their part....again I see this as a plus for the vehicle owner...if the shop is not warranted by the insurer then the owner will have to fight that battle on their own, and be with a messed up car, unless and until the shop fixes the issue or the court proceedings are over with...which we all know that can take for only ever...
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 09:26 pm Post Subject:
regarding the second article (here's the link by the way http://www.bodyshopbusiness.com/Article/3389/every_claim_is_not_the_same.aspx ).... Well first of all it's Illinois only that he's talking about and I haven't a clue about Illinois law or insurance....I would be very careful to every just drop a car off at a shop and say fix it will all new oem parts the insurance company will pay....think more times than not a big old fat denial might be forth coming even on third party claims...can't imagine any judge not backing a carrier on their right to inspect damage. Now under Property damage (third party) the carrier will pay what the insured would be held legally liable for...would the insured be legally liable to put a new oem lift gate on a ten year old vehicle? Nope I don't think they would if a LKQ one were available....I guess you could take a gamble like that if you have a pretty big bank account...I personally wouldn't risk it myself....(my job don't pay THAT well... :roll: )
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